[00:00:00] Rowena: Hello, you are listening to Two Booked Up. I'm Rowena Mabbott here with Shelley Tonkin Smith. And today we are chatting about a new book, 4,000 Weeks Time Management for Mortals by Oliver Burkeman. This book tackles the daunting task of managing our time and making the most of the limited number of weeks we have in our lives.
[00:00:24] Shelley: Yep. Which if you hope to live to 80, is just 4,000 weeks, hence the title. But here's the kicker. This is not a book about productivity.
In fact, it's an argument against this mindset of trying to optimize our schedules to do more, more, more.
Oliver turns the whole idea of time on its head to try and find a new solution to this time management issue that really we've always struggled with. And along the way, he takes us on a journey through different philosophies, different religions, and different cultures.
I found it absolutely fascinating.
[00:01:03] Rowena: So seriously, Shelly, what are we waiting for? Let's dive in and talk about 4,000 weeks.
[00:01:09] Shelley: This is the Two Booked Up Podcast, where we talk about books.
[00:01:19] Rowena: The books that are challenging us to live more intentional lives.
[00:01:23] Shelley: The books that are equipping us on our business and professional
[00:01:27] Rowena: and the books that delight and bring us joy
[00:01:32] Shelley: So if you want to live a life with more intention and you want to be doing work that brings you joy, then come and join the bookish conversation with me, Shelly Tonkin. Smith.
[00:01:43] Rowena: and me Rowena Mabbott here on Two Booked Up.
[00:01:47] Shelley: All right, so 4,000 Weeks by Oliver Birkman. I'm gonna kick things off with a quick overview of the book. So the book explores the popular concept of time management. We've all kind of grappled with it but he takes a different point of view to the one that you maybe used to, you know, that idea of implementing certain techniques so that you can get more stuff done and that you've optimized everything in your schedule.
You know, often that's what we think of with time management, but instead, in 4,000 weeks, Oliver Bergman starts with the boundaries that we're typically working with as humans, and that is, if you assume you'll live to 80, , then you'll have about 4,000 weeks here on Earth. with that kind of boundary and that kind of bombshell dropped, he splits the book into two big parts, each with chapters inside of them.
And so part one is called Choosing to Choose. And in this part he sets up this idea of finitude that we have limited time. And so rather than trying to cram a lot of stuff into their time, we'd do better to make choices. And trade offs kind of reminds me of essentialism. So like the one example that stands out for me is that no one is gonna be able to travel the whole world and see the whole world.
So accept that, and if travel is important to you, You are only gonna be able to choose some places that you want to travel to and then enjoy them while you are there, rather than trying to cover the whole world and choose everything.
So then he goes onto part two, and that is called Beyond Control. So this is where he offers a lot of alternatives to this productivity culture that he's sort of set up and then taken down.
And this part two is focused on the antithesis to this idea that we can control time, that we can fit in more, and that we can try and predict the future. So he asks us to release that control in Part 2 and has some nice practical ways of, of doing that. Although I, I do also enjoy all the ancient knowledge he brings in well-known philosophers and researchers and spiritual figures to support his approach for using our limited lifetime to focus on what matters.
Rather than promoting this, it's, and it's a very modern idea of this hyper productivity and this constant need to optimize everything. So Berkman explains that our world is focused on organizing time to the last minutes, and we also focused on optimizing our financial status, accumulating as much money as we can, even at the cost of life and living.
And we are also focused as a society and as a world on, on leveraging our resources to get the most out of our resources. He points out that as a society, this, this just leaves us in a place where we've forgotten how to actually live in the presence and enjoy life. And that's really the rallying call of this book is, is live in the present.
This is, this moment is all we have, and let's enjoy life in this moment.
[00:05:31] Rowena: Yes, absolutely Shelly. That is definitely one of the key messages I took, and interestingly, I think it's fascinating that it also is one of the key messages that's come through in some of the other books we've featured, such as Essentialism and The Lazy Genius Way.
Now before we go any further, I just wanna quickly explain that we are not going to talk through each chapter as we've done with other books, partly because Oliver's Berkman's chapter titles are kind of cryptic with titles like the Watermelon Problem.
Um, so instead
I know I start looking at that and go, yeah, I could fancy some watermelon. So what we're gonna do instead is we're gonna cover the key ideas or the lessons that are shared in the book, and we'll reference chapters as much as we can.
[00:06:19] Embracing the Limits of our Time
[00:06:19] Rowena: So let's talk about one of the ideas, which is embracing the limits of our time.
Now, for reference, that pretty much comes up in chapter one and chapter three, so it's in. This is what, 4,000 weeks is a limit on our time, and I'm gonna share a quote here because Oliver is at pains to point out no one really even gets 4,000 weeks. And so here's the quote.
"You never even get a single week in the sense of being able to guarantee that it will arrive or that you'll be in a position to use it precisely as you wish."
End. He expands on this to explain that the core challenge of managing our limited time isn't actually about how to get everything done. That's never gonna happen newsflash, but rather it's how do we decide most wisely what not to do, and how do we feel at peace about not doing. . Now, this to me, is a, is a bit of a turn up, right?
Like it's the complete opposite of most of your productivity books. It's like kind of like upside down approach from every other time management book, which is why I think this book is quite powerful. And I'm gonna share another quote because I think using his words, you really get the kind of the style of his it's very readable.
So I love the way he explains it here. And here's the quote.
"Organizing your days with the understanding that you definitely won't have time for everything you want to do or that other people want you to do. And so at the very least, you can stop beating yourself up for failing."
So at the very least you can stop beating yourself up for failing cuz you're just not gonna succeed.
Now, that seems a bit bleak, but it's really about that understanding. What do you think Shelly?
[00:08:10] Shelley: Yeah, absolutely. It's like one of these tooth bombs that actually. , as you said at at first reading, it sounds a bit bleak. Even the idea of tire management for mortals, you facing your mortality and it's like, feels like bad news and a bit macabre. But a quote like that I think has actually full of self-compassion of going, you know what, you're not gonna get it all done anyway, so don't worry about it. You're human. That's what we do. And as a parent and as a business owner, I know it's so common for me to get to the end of the day and go, oh man, I didn't get everything done, or, or even, I got nothing done today.
And, and this book says, well, yeah, obviously you're never going to get it all done, and neither is anybody. So you can chill. and I, I felt that was a beautiful permission slip.
[00:09:01] Rowena: Mm-hmm. . Completely agree.
[00:09:03] The Efficiency Trap
[00:09:03] Shelley: And, I think that also ties in with this idea of the efficiency trap, which he introduces in chapter two. So the efficiency trap is that we believe we are being efficient to get in things done, and we work really hard and we even struggle to fit everything in, but we spin those plates and we juggle those balls.
Whatever metaphor you thinking of. . But when we succeed, often all we've done is spend our time on the least meaningful things. So we've been efficient, we've been running on a hamster wheel, and efficiency doesn't really help us focus on the important stuff.
So I've also got a quote here so he says,
"rendering yourself more efficient either by implementing various productivity techniques or by driving yourself harder, won't generally result in the feeling of having enough time because all else being equal, the demands will increase to offset any benefits."
and I've got a few ideas here, but what I also wanna just mention is that Oliver Bergman was a productivity writer for, from one of the top American, newspapers. So he was into all this productivity stuff, but then actually realized that. It's not serving him.
But yeah, I think of email. Um, and I think that's been one for the ages for, certainly for our ages, I can remember people in, in the lift, like on their blackberries in the days of blackberries, like send in email. But then you always, you send in the emails and you think you're being efficient standing there using your Lyft ride to send an email to someone, but that just manufactures another email reply back and a, and an email chain.
And in the end, those benefits of the productivity are actually offset. Now in more recent times, I'll also think of Slack. I've had to be very careful with Slack. So it seems like this lovely, convenience, efficient thing to communicate with, with your, with your colleagues.
Uh, but I had Slack on my phone and then I'm getting messages in the middle of my day, and I'm not in the head space to deal with them. It seems like it's convenience and it is, but it really has to be reigned in. Otherwise the benefits of the time you're saving are negligible. In fact it's probably the opposite and you ending up sending more silly messages or, doing these more meaningless tasks.
So yeah, I think, I think that's examples of where you can get into this efficiency trap doing just more and more, more things, but
[00:11:38] Rowena: I know actually what you're saying brings to mind for me, the idea of social media. I'm gonna go there because as business owners we can be very efficient and very productive in generating a bunch of, like social media posts and responding to messages on Twitter and hoping that all of this activity is, moving the needle forward But if it's not specifically bringing in income, is it efficient? Is it productive? But we've been very busy all day. So we are doing all of this activity in our business and we've been super busy, but at the end of the day, what do we have to show for it? We have a bunch of activity, but not necessarily productive activity that's moving.
So that's the focus thing about what was actually mattering.
[00:12:22] The Importance of Reflection and Self-Awareness
[00:12:22] Rowena: But now moving on. There is another theme that I really liked in this book and that is the importance of reflection and self-awareness.
Now, Oliver, or suggests that we need to be honest with ourselves about our priorities and how we're spending our time. . Now, he's not the only book that has talked about this. A lot of the books we've talked about on this show have, kind of had this message hidden in there as well.
But what Oliver's suggesting is that he wants . Us to take a step back and ask ourselves, what do we really wanna accomplish in our lives? So in our 4,000 weeks, what is it that we wanna accomplish? And then once we have a clear sense of our goals. We can make much more intentional choices about how we use our time, which of course is very much what we've been talking about in this season of the podcast.
So knowing our goals, being clear on our values, and then being deliberate in the choices we make in our lives and businesses is very much the kind of message that I'm getting from the. .
And of course, I'm just gonna throw in here. It's also what we've been talking about in our reading. After all, we do have our snazzy reading challenge too, .
[00:13:37] Shelley: Yep. You can download our little reading checklist for the 23 for 2023 reading challenge. It's, it's actually been so much fun. It's really flavoring the way I choose books this year, so that's been really great.
[00:13:50] The Impatience Spiral
[00:13:50] Shelley: But yeah, talking about reading makes me think of one of the other concepts that he brings up in the book, and that's the impatience spiral. So the impatience spiral is this need to always do things quickly and always do things efficiently. And he talks about things like convenience foods and like for example, like Uber deliveries, like I love me and Uber delivery every now and then.
and it's so convenient when you've, you know, maybe had a busy day and you don't feel like a can and you order in and it gets delivered to you. You don't even have to go out to the restaurant to get it. But he kinda just pushes out there of like this idea of going, but what about your local restaurant?
What about going there and standing and talking to the guy who's making the pizzas and the guy who owns the restaurant and. it's more inconvenient to hop in your car and go and collect your pizza, take a walk and go and collect it. Isn't there something in that is convenience, like the only holy grail that we are aiming for?
You know, I think in our society it's like, oh, do this cuz it's so convenient. But like, is that the ultimate aim of everything? So I'm not, I'm not against Uber delivery at all. But in those moments where you just seen something just cuz it's convenient, he was challenging me to go, Hmm. Oh.
Do I need convenience right now? And I,
[00:15:11] Rowena: And is it, is it the only driver?
that's that's what you're saying, like it's not the only driver. We need to be a bit more deliberate.
In our choices and our decision making.
[00:15:20] Shelley: Yes, so I've just cooked breakfast with my kids and I will usually put on a podcast do the breakfast myself. But recently the boys have been helping me with that. And of course, you know, how is cooking with a, a young child, there's some things that will take longer than if you just did it yourself, but, It's actually been so fun.
They've learned so much and they help me beat the eggs and now they pour the eggs, the scrambled eggs into the pan and they're learning about how to scramble the eggs and how that actually happens. They were amazed. They're like, oh, is this what happens to the eggs? Is this how you actually make scrambled eggs?
And in that respect, like convenience would be, I just do it quickly, get it done, and we eat breakfast and boom. Actually letting go of that impatience cha going, I have this abundance of time, which is another concept he brings up in the book. And let's enjoy this moment right here, right now and there's, there's gonna be places in your life where you can afford to go. I don't need to be efficient here. It can actually be inefficient. This doesn't have to scale .
And I also wanna just bring up, A reading quote, since we are all about our reading and you've, you know, you've brought up our reading challenge and that kind of thing.
I highlighted this in my Kindle vision of the book.
" People complain that they no longer have time to read. But the reality as the novelist Tim Parks has pointed out is rarely that they literally can't locate an empty half hour in the course of the day. What they mean is that when they do find a morsel of time and use it to try to read, they find they're too impatient to give themselves over to the task. It's not simply that one is interrupted writes Parks. It is that one is actually inclined to interruption. It's not so much that we are too busy or too distractable, but that we're unwilling to accept the truth that reading is the sort of activity that largely operates according to its own schedule." And quite, and that one was an interesting one to me cuz I think so often we wanna reign in all our activities in the day and. Reading takes the time it takes and you know, we've spoken about slow reading before. Embrace it, go for it, you know, take the time it takes. And don't be impatient with your reading.
Enjoy it. Actually live in that book,
live in that moment.
[00:17:48] Rowena: Yeah, exactly. And I was gonna say, we've got some terrific episodes to support you in your reading as well. So going back in our back catalog, we've got some. Episodes that talk about how to make more time for reading and how to embrace reading fiction.
So go back and check out our back catalog if finding time to read is something that you would like to do.
[00:18:09] Life is for Living
[00:18:09] Rowena: So one of the other key messages that I took, and this is following on from what you are saying, Shelly, about you know, taking the time and embracing the time abundance that we have is that in essence life is for living.
So, Oliver Berkman does talk about the fact that humans didn't really care that much about their days regarding. How they spent their time before we started to think about how we spent our time. So the rising and the setting sun, the natural season cycle, the harvest, you know, all of those things in an agrarian culture that guided people's lives.
They didn't think about time. and the use of time and productivity and all those things we've been talking about.
They just didn't think about it the way we do today. They didn't try to organize every day in advance or optimize their workflow to constantly save more time. They just lived. Life was for living. So now the constant pressure to have and to be more, and to do more and to make better use of our time. Like Shelly, this kind of idea that if you've got a half an hour, you need to be productive.
What can you do in this half an hour? It actually means stress and anxiety. are a lot higher. And I know I am definitely partial to this in a household where, where scrambled eggs for breakfast is not an option when you've gotta have your kids out the door and at school by seven. So anxiety in the morning and stress getting us all out the door, is quite high because our time has been.
Kind of overscheduled. And so sometimes we can forget to actually enjoy life, which is why when it's the off season for sports and things, I'm like, when people ask me, oh, are your kids doing winter sport? I'm like, no, I'm actually gonna enjoy some downtime where we can have a sleep in and we can have a leisurely breakfast together and we can go for a walk, you know, at 10 o'clock in the morning because we are not at some sporting ground.
So I think there's a really lovely quote here.
and this is really relevant for the idea that I love to work with people around, which is simplifying. So getting clarity and then simplifying. Here's the quote,
"the more firmly you believe it ought to be possible to find time for everything. The less pressure you'll feel to ask whether any given activity is the best use for a portion of your time."
I just think that's so powerful because right, we are just so busy on that hamster wheel. Like Shelly, you mentioned, there's actually a lesson here which says, let's just put a pause on for a sec. Let's stop structuring everything in our life. Not throwing away all structure, cuz you know I'm still an upholder, but doesn't, everything doesn't have to be structured.
We can leave time for white space for unstructured. letting your kids come home and once they've done their homework, let them have an hour just playing. Simply put, enjoy your life and don't spend all of it. Planning, which is one of the really big messages I took from this book.
[00:21:02] Shelley: That's a big one for you, Ro, because you are
a prolific planner.
Some of that structure is very supportive and very helpful. But I think there, there is this necessary need to go. We can't be so, stuck in the future and planning that we don't actually enjoy the presence and, and live the life that we have here. Um, and that life is for the living. So, yeah, I think just in terms of, Leaving space for unstructured time that can be part of your scheduling.
You know, I think that's also the thing is that you can still do that planning and do the scheduling, but also plan for some unstructured time. .
[00:21:38] How to become a Better Procrastinator
[00:21:38] Shelley: And that relates to another key message that I took from the book. My husband actually looked over my shoulder as I got to chapter four, which is called becoming a Better Procrastinator. I was very excited to see that one because I am a bit of a procrastinator and yes, he, he says Procrastination is okay. Everybody procrastinates. It's kind of in-built into our humanity and why? Because we cannot possibly perform at our highest parameters at all times.
We'd be red line in it, and of course, you know, when you do the red line, you're gonna burn out. And so we can't operate at those highest parameters and we need to have those ebbs and flows. To support us to operate at our almost the highest level of contribution. Uh, so allow some unstructured time in your life.
It's good, it's healthy. You can call it procrastination, you can call it rest, which is also another of his chapter. It's called Rediscover and Rest.
So I've got so much to say on this, so much so that our next episode is gonna be dedicated to how to become a better procrastinator. So I'm gonna stop there and tell everyone to tune in to our next episode.
[00:22:54] Spend your free time doing things you love
[00:22:54] Rowena: Yes, that is gonna be fascinating and I can't wait for it. But right now I'm up to my last big takeaway that I got from the book, which is something that I am passionate about and I work with my clients on, which is spend your free time doing things you love.
So if you manage to prioritize your tasks properly you'll actually end up having some spare time because you've decided you can't do everything and you're just gonna focus on the stuff that actually matters.
There's been a decades long shift to this kind of hustle mentality and work as a source of identity, which means leisure or free time has basically been seen as a bad thing.
So Oliver suggests you find a hobby that brings you pleasure. Now he does point out that at first you might feel kind of weird doing activities that don't bring any financial benefits and that you might actually be not very good at. , but that's only a reaction that is kind of ingrained into you because of this overachieving brain that we've all been developing our whole lives
so this idea is that you should be able to have fun doing things that are just for fun's sake. So for me, for example, I sing in a choir and that's just fun for me. I love it though. I'm not gonna make any money from it. I'll never be a professional singer. We have great time singing together, and it's just super fun. Now I have a quote that I think captures this idea beautifully.
" The truth then is that spending at least some of your leisure time wastefully focused solely on the pleasure of the experience is the only way not to waste it to be truly at leisure rather than covertly engaged in future focused self-improvement. In order to most fully inhabit the only life you ever get, you have to refrain from using every spare hour for personal growth."
Now, That does seem a bit countercultural. Because we have been told for so long that we should be always, so you know, this growth mindset and we should be personal development and professional development even this podcast is basically about how we can read stuff to make ourselves better, which is why I think this book is so. Kind of rebellious. I think that's probably why Shelly likes it, cuz she's a rebel and the messages here are enjoy being bad, be average, or just kind of mediocre at something and having a hobby or exploiting a passion.
Just do it because it's fun and you enjoy it. No other reason. It's a permission slip to say it's okay to do stuff just because it feels good as long as you're not hurting anybody else. Go for. So my kids would be like, let's play Minecraft.
Or I don't know, like if you, you have a craft or a stitching hobby or something, you're not gonna turn it into a side hustle. You just do it because it's fun and it helps you relax. And then what Oliver suggests is fill up the rest of your free time with quality moments spent with your family and friends.
This is the bit that I loved as well, is it's completely counterintuitive again, so it's not counter-cultural this time. Now it's counter-intuitive that spending more time doing fun and enjoyable, that's like leisure activities actually boosts your productivity in the long run. So despite all of this messaging seeming to be so anti productivity, it actually does it works, which I love because that is something that I'm very passionate. you know, finding the fun in life and bringing the joy.
[00:26:29] Shelley: Yes. And you know, I love this idea too. I think of my watercolor painting. It's something that I've never ventured into. But only like now in my forties I've just so enjoyed doing watercolor painting with no background whatsoever.
I bought a course on Domestica, which I'm really loving and I. Like I'm not good at it, but then I actually do have watercolor and I'm like, oh, that is pretty good. But I don't have to salads, I don't have to have anyone assess it or anything like that. I'm just doing it for the fun of doing it, and I can afford to be mediocre at it.
And it's so liberating and it's so enjoyable. And yes, as you say, these leisure activities, isn't it amazing how they do boost your productivity in the long run and. You know I'm off on another little holiday tomorrow, Wednesday to Sunday. And like, I'm just so excited for that bit of recharge time. But, , it takes a lot of intention to plan those holidays because you've gotta ramp up to them. I've gotta plan my work around it, and , I'm quite maxed out with work as we speak, but it's a choice that I'm making, and I know that. all my work is not going to get finished before I go on holiday. I think there is this need sometimes of like, oh, let's just wrap everything up with a nice bow and go off on holiday. It's not finished, and that's okay, and I've practiced this a few times, so I know that when I come back I'll just pick up from where, where I left off.
And honestly, a long weekend, it's not gonna hurt anyone. In fact, it is beneficial for everyone, for me, for my clients, for my family.
I think this quote really captured it for me.
"In this situation, making a choice, picking one item from the menu, far from representing some kind of defeat, becomes an affirmation.
"It's a positive commitment to spend a portion of time doing 'this' instead of 'that'. Actually instead of an infinite number of other 'thats' because 'this', you've decided is what counts the most right now. In other words, it's precisely the fact that I could have chosen a different and perhaps equally valuable way to spend this afternoon bestows meaning on the choice I did make, and the same applies, of course, to an entire lifetime."
quotes. Isn't that a
[00:28:54] Rowena: it's so good. I love
[00:28:57] Shelley: bombs
[00:28:58] Rowena: There's So many truth bombs.
[00:29:00] Overall Take
[00:29:00] Rowena: So Shelly, I would love to know what is your overall view or take on the book?
[00:29:06] Shelley: Okay, so this is a five star book for me. I recommended it to my husband because I was talking about it while I was reading it, and he was like, yeah, I think I need to read this one. He also really enjoyed it, and we had some great chats about what Oliver Birkman had to say about time.
But I really felt that as a rebel and a person who kind of struggles to be organized in the traditional sense of the word, and definitely as someone who struggles with time management, it was such a refreshing read for me.
It made me feel seen, and it also made me feel like my work was less about trying to plan and control. , but actually the work that I need to do is actually releasing that desire for ultimate control because I'm not gonna get it anyway. . So, yeah, I loved how he told the story through the diversity of views, really shook things up and challenged me to think about time very differently.
And what about you Ro? What's, what's your overall take on 4,000?
[00:30:10] Rowena: Oh, like you, Shelly, I really enjoyed this book and like you, I. I really relished the different perspectives from philosophers and the ancient wisdom that, Oliver shares. I found it very easy to read and also written in an engaging way. Unlike some of the texts that I've read where they reference a lot of philosophy, sometimes they're a little hard going Oliver's style made it.
Almost conversational. And therefore I was kind of turning the pages without realizing, oh wow, I've read a whole chapter. Which I, I think is actually quite important. If you are listening and you're thinking, oh, is this one I can be bothered reading? Just say this is actually quite an easy read despite the kind of content that is in there.
I really loved the idea that we shouldn't try and fill our schedules with maximum activity, but instead leave space for unstructured time and leisure activities. And by learning how to enjoy the little things and finding pleasure in holiday, and hobbies and holidays, and reconnecting with our loved ones, we actually improve the quality of our lives, significantly.
And the key messages really resonated. especially, I think because I read it after I had read, the book, things That Matter by Joshua Becker, and I'd just read, Cal Newport's Digital Minimalism, so both of which had very similar key messages.
So kind in Mind was already primed and receptive to, to take on these messages from that Oliver shares in 4,000 weeks.
Now, as I've mentioned before, I think this book turns time management on its head. And so instead of trying to cram more in and do more stuff, we're actually to take things away, to remove the things that don't matter and make the changes to improve our life and the way we use our time for the better.
He himself puts it beautifully in one of his quotes towards the back of the book, and I'm gonna share it with you because I think it just captures the essence of what he's trying to say.
" in this book, I've made the case for embracing the truth about your limited time and limited control over that time, not simply because it's the truth, so you might as well face it, but because it's actively empowering to do so. By stepping more fully into reality as it actually is, you get to accomplish more of what matters and feel more fulfilled about it."
Yet another truth bomb. I just think it is such a powerful summation of his own words, summing up the essence of his book, and I just think, you know, probably a five star review from me too. I really enjoyed it.
/So in our next episode, we will take the conversation inspired by 4,000 weeks. A bit further and more specifically, as Shelly has already mentioned, she will be exploring one of the more contentious ideas that Oliver Bertman discusses the power of procrastination.
[00:32:58] Shelley: Ah, yes. Procrastination is often seen as something very bad. So I'll be chatting about how we can use our, leanings towards procrastination more intentionally in our business.
[00:33:10] Rowena: I'll be following that episode up with a deeper dive into the five life-changing questions that Oliver shares in his final summary and how they can influence our personal choices.
I'll be sharing some ideas and examples of how we can use those questions to help guide our decision making in a more intentional way.
[00:33:31] Shelley: Yes, and let's get reading everybody. Let's get intentional about our reading. So you can do that by downloading our free very cute 2023 Reading Challenge checklist, which is all about reading with more intention. So go and visit signup dot two Booked up.com. That link will be in the show notes, but there you can sign up and get that PDF delivered to your inbox and let us know how you're going with the categories or what you think of 4,000 weeks and what you thought of what we've discussed on this podcast.
You can find me on Twitter at Shelley t Smith, or you can sign up for my newsletter at Tonkin Smith dot com and for my copywriting services. Head on over to shelleysmithcreative.com, and then remember to subscribe or follow whatever your podcast player says. We've got lots more to say about intentional living, about doing work that lights you up and about all the books that help us to do that.
[00:34:29] Rowena: And of course, go and visit twobookedup.com where you'll find show notes and a transcript of this episode. You can find me at Rowena Mabbott on Instagram. And if you'd like to learn more about how I can support you as a career and life confidence coach, or download my free book, the A to Z of Career and Life Confidence, or read one of my many blog posts, then head on over to my online home at Rowena Mabbott dot com.
Thanks for listening to two Booked up today. Shelly and I will be back with another new episode in a couple of weeks'. Until then, he's to doing more things that matter in our precious 4,000 weeks.