TBU#56: What Motivates Us? Drive by Daniel Pink

TBU Episode 56 Drive by Daniel Pink [00:00:00] Rowena: Hi everyone. I'm Rowena Mabbott, and you're listening to the Two Booked Up Podcast. I'm joined as always by Shelley Tonkin Smith, and today we're discussing one of her favorite books. [00:00:14] Shelley: Hi, Rowena. Yes, today we're going to be having a chat about Drive, The Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us by Daniel Pink. And you're right, this has been a favorite of mine since I read it all the way back in 2010, actually. So the big idea of the book is that a carrot and stick or reward and punishment approach to motivation doesn't work. [00:00:40] Or at least it doesn't work as well as we often think it does. So Drive's message is that particularly for 21st century work, we need an upgrade in our understanding of motivation. And that upgrade is focused on autonomy, mastery and Purpose. [00:01:00] Rowena: Autonomy, mastery, and purpose are all very big ideas. I'm excited to unpack these with you and hear why Drive has been such an influential book for you. I think it's also going to be fun to bring the conversation into 2024, as it were. [00:01:15] Shelley: Oh, yes. It's always fun to extend the conversation that these kinds of books spark, particularly as busy working parents to feel more motivated and energized about our jobs and professional lives. But I think the ideas will absolutely extend into our approach to parenting, relationships, and even things like hobbies and leisure time. [00:01:38] Okay, so if you want to know that surprising truth about what motivates us, stay tuned. [00:01:46] Rowena: Welcome to Two Booked Up. I'm Rowena Mabbott [00:01:49] Shelley: And I'm Shelley Tonkin Smith. We're two well read best friends. [00:01:54] Rowena: And now you are an honorary member of our book club. We're going to fast forward you to the mind blown and mic drop parts of those business and personal development books that are probably on your must read list. [00:02:06] Shelley: Because as multi passionate working parents, we know how hard it is to find time to read, but we also know how much you love learning, growing, and making a difference in the world. [00:02:17] Rowena: So treat yourself to a bit of bookish conversation, whether you've read the book or not. [00:02:23] Shelley: With your two friends on Two Booked Up. [00:02:30] Rowena: Okay, so Shelley, since Drive is one of your favourites, you're going to be taking the lead today and I'm going to be peppering you with questions. So, can you please give us a quick overview of the book? [00:02:43] Shelley: Sure, absolutely. But I do expect, in fact, I'm hoping Rowena that you'll have your coaching hat on for much of this episode, because feeling motivated about your career and your life in general is very much what you help your coaching clients with. So, expect a few questions peppered your way as well. [00:03:03] But here's your cocktail party summary, which is actually a handy little feature at the end of the book Drive. Dan Pink gives a couple of summaries and ideas about the book. So his cocktail summary is this. "When it comes to motivation, there's a gap between what science knows and what business does. Our current business operating system, which is built around external carrot and stick motivators, doesn't work and often does harm. [00:03:33] We need an upgrade. The DRIVE approach has three essential elements. Number one, Autonomy, that is the desire to direct our own lives. Number two, Mastery, the urge to get better and better at something that matters. And number three, Purpose, that is the yearning to do what we do in the service of something larger than ourselves." [00:04:02] Rowena: That is so good. I like that. That's a really handy little summary. And I did notice in the back of my copy, there are those excellent little summaries that he's already given you, which makes life a lot easier. So thanks, Daniel Pink. Um, I do feel like if we're going to have the cocktail party summary, we should probably have like some canapes or we should have prepped and made ourselves like a fancy drink or something. [00:04:23] Yes, sir. Leaning on from that, I've picked up from the book that his main argument is that traditional rewards like money or bonuses that a lot of us quite appreciate, they aren't perhaps as effective as we've been led to believe, especially for those creative or complex tasks. [00:04:41] The old model, what he calls the carrot and stick approach, worked really well for repetitive tasks, so back maybe in the industrial revolution when it was put this widget into this box. It doesn't really work for the kind of creative problem solving that's demanded in today's world. And I think I'm just going to pause here and address that term today's world, because Shelley, like one of our earlier books, when we discussed Simon Sinek's Why, this book has also written a fairly long time ago, relative to how things have been moving. [00:05:12] So this, you mentioned, I think this one is, uh, 20, 2009. Does that sound [00:05:16] Shelley: Yeah, published, published in 2009. Yep. [00:05:19] Rowena: Yeah, so that's quite a while ago. [00:05:20] Shelley: 2010. [00:05:21] Rowena: Yeah, so it's 15 years old now, which is older than my youngest child. And when you think about it like that, a lot shifted in 15 years, not just my kid got really big. Um, a lot of other things have changed. [00:05:33] And so with that, like with start with why and some of the other older books we've discussed. Some of the examples that Daniel Pink's shares in the book are probably a little bit dated. And I also think that in our post COVID world, some of the changes that he suggests in the book have actually already happened in the more modern progressive workplaces. [00:05:54] And I will also add one last caveat. That certainly in a lot of the areas where I've worked, either as a coach or as a consultant, there is actually an increased awareness of the importance of motivation. And the other key word is engagement and employee engagement, but I'm sure we're going to get to that. [00:06:12] Shelley: Yeah, I think that's, it's, it's heartening to see, right? That like some of these books that are written, it's not just like words that have gone out into the ether and things haven't shifted. So it's, it's quite helpful to note that and if you are going to pick up a copy of the book yourself and have a read of it, it is just important to be aware of that. [00:06:30] the context and the time that it was written in. And I have found, I will say that in revisiting the book again, it's been interesting to notice how those ideas have influenced the way I've approached my work, and, and also some more personal things like homeschooling and, you know, As I said, my leisure time and my hobbies over the last 15 years. [00:06:53] So yes, lots has shifted in my life in those 15 years. Um, but in reading it again, I think I have internalized a lot of the messages, which is one of the reasons why I think this is one of my favorites, my favorite books, and just the idea of intrinsic motivation, but yes, this is exactly what we're doing here. We're bringing the conversation into 2024. Particularly for those of us busy, working parents who are juggling a whole lot of things and maybe feeling demotivated in life, these are some of the tools that we can draw on. So, yes, there we go. [00:07:27] Rowena: Nice. Okay. So on that, the subtitle of the book, let's get into the juicy stuff because the subtitle is quite, a bit of a hook, isn't it? The subtitle is the surprising truth about what motivates us. So Shelley, it's over to you. Time to spill the beans. What is that surprising truth? [00:07:46] Shelley: Yes, well simply put, we have three drives. So the first drive is our biological drive. So that includes all the basics, hunger, thirst, and sex. What Dan calls motivation 1. 0. Then second is another long recognized drive And that is to respond to rewards and punishments in our environment. So that's what he calls motivation 2. 0. And this is the surprise, a third drive, what some call intrinsic motivation. And so this is what we could call motivation 3. 0. So Daniel Pink's argument is that the business world has effectively ignored, or at least downplayed this aspect of human drive, this intrinsic motivation, and that's to our detriment and to companies detriments. [00:08:44] Rowena: Hmm. I got that message loud and clear that , we need to upgrade our thinking from this kind of carrot and stick motivation 2. 0 way to a more intrinsic motivation 3. 0 way, which I found really interesting because for anybody else who's listening who might have studied psychology at university, this stuff isn't actually new. [00:09:03] I mean, I was studying this, let's not age myself, but it was last century. And we were talking about intrinsic motivation then. But I think, and this is the key point, that even as Dan Pink points out, Even though we've known this, and the big companies have known it too, it actually has taken a fairly long time for any change of any kind of substance to filter through. [00:09:25] So whilst we might know this in theory level, in the big companies, they've struggled to work out how do you actually integrate and incorporate that intrinsic motivation and how do you help employees and staff members and people in general actually tap into that. And so he also has conceded that for some more of the mundane routine tasks, like we talked about, putting widget A into box B, rewards can be very effective, but he's pretty clear that these are the exception. [00:09:53] And now, and I'm going to say, if you're a parent, maybe you want to sit down right now. He says that rewards can actually diminish. Our Intrinsic Motivation. Shelley, can you talk us through that, please? [00:10:07] Shelley: I know, because you think, well, I'll give this kid this reward for party training, or for doing his routine in the morning, or for reading books, or whatever, you know, behaviour [00:10:17] Rowena: Eating their dinner within a certain timeframe. That was one of my big ones. I was [00:10:21] like, I don't, it shouldn't take you an hour to eat dinner. I'm going to reward you if you can eat your dinner within 30 minutes. [00:10:27] Shelley: yes, yes. And, and look, I think there's, there's some cases where that can help and that maybe is just something to shift the whole thing. But the problem is that when these sort of more old school motivation 2. 0, as he talks about carrots and stick kind of methodologies meets our deeper motivations, things can get weird. [00:10:51] The typical, okay, do this, and then you get that kind of rewards. They really will reduce what we're actually aiming for. They can squash our inner motivation and actually make us perform worse. They can stifle our creativity and they can even push aside good habits because perhaps in, if you've got a deadline, say for example, and now you incentivized to meet that deadline, Maybe then you are cutting corners and you're doing things and there can even be issues of ethics and like, you know, up in unethical behavior, you can eventually, you know, on the worst side of things could lead to addictions and just generally like, Short term thinking of like, oh, let's just get the reward and there's not the long term thinking of the actual task itself, but by tapping into the deeper motivations You can then achieve a lot more with your people. [00:11:52] There's also this fact of, if you offer a reward, say for example, for, uh, meeting a deadline and doing a project, you, the people get the, or the employees get that reward. Then, of course, the next time there's a project, they're going to expect that it's incentivized and that there's a reward. And if there's no reward to be had, then employees might be left thinking, well, why should I bother? [00:12:16] And then you have morale problems and engagement problems and that sort of thing. So those rewards need to be Really well thought out. And I think we also need to, according to Daniel Pink, we need to be thinking about how they affect the intrinsic motivators, which can be very powerful. Um, he also just right at the end of the book, he has a couple of like, You know, the focus of the book is very much on business, but then he has a couple of extensions and he talks about kids and talks about their chores and their allowance and giving the kids an allowance. [00:12:54] And he says, you should encourage your kids to do chores and you should give them an allowance, but don't attach the two together. So chores are done as a contribution to making the house function. [00:13:05] And this is what you do. And then the allowance is for you to have some autonomy over what you want to buy as a kid and hopefully also save up for. So kind of separating the two so that there's not this, like, reward for doing stuff that you really should be doing as your contribution to the household, but we won't get into too much into parenting. [00:13:28] But I think it's fun to think about these things in broader life terms. [00:13:32] I think what I'd like to do now is to just move on to chapter three, because this is where he starts talking about the distinction between what he calls type X behavior, that's, um, X because it's related to extrinsic things and motivation and type I behavior, I because it's related to intrinsic things. [00:13:53] So Ro, can I ask you to take us through those differences? [00:13:56] Rowena: For sure. Okay. So motivation 2. 0, which is the carrot and sticks was all about type X behavior. So that's where we're driven more by the outside rewards than by what actually feels satisfying. So in an example, it's less about loving what you're doing and more about doing it for the pay packet, for example. [00:14:16] So there are people who say, well, I'm working for the money. I'm Sure there's plenty of country and western songs with that kind of theme to it too. So, Motivation 3. 0 is the upgrade that Daniel Pink says we need for this century, the 21st century. So it's all about type I behaviour, that intrinsic focus. [00:14:34] So this focus is on the satisfaction of the activity itself. Not just the reward it might bring. So for real success and fulfillment, both in work and life, he's suggesting that we need to shift ourselves and our people, whether that's our people at work or our people at home, from type X, that extrinsic focus, to type I, the intrinsic focus. [00:14:56] Now, as a coach, and also as someone who's been around for a while, I'm going to acknowledge that that it's actually really hard. It's a challenge to change and make shifts within ourselves. Especially because a lot of us have not been taught to identify or embrace our intrinsic, that type I motivation. [00:15:15] We've been told to just get on with it because that's what is expected, which is often the extrinsic reward. You know, getting paid, just do what you're told, you know, that kind of messaging. Not all, like Shelley, you're in a different camp altogether because you've always been doing your own thing. But for a lot of the clients I work with, for example, that remembering and reconnecting with what they actually get excited by, Feels really hard. [00:15:36] But I do think that, Daniel's argument is that as humans, we all have some kind of intrinsic motivational drive within us. [00:15:45] Now, what I love is that he says that type I's, that intrinsic focus, they're not born, they're made. And I'd agree we can, we can change this. We can do it. And so making this shift to a more intrinsically motivated type I kind of person is a good idea. And here's why in a quick summary, it brings with it better performance, better health, and a stronger sense of wellbeing. [00:16:09] And based on my own experience for myself and working with clients, We generally experience more satisfaction and happiness when we are intrinsically focused and intrinsically motivated. So there's a lot of really good reasons why it's worth putting the effort in to become more intrinsically motivated. [00:16:26] So Shelley, now that we know why intrinsic motivation is so important, I think it's over to you to dive into the three elements of intrinsic motivation, which are, as we mentioned at the beginning, autonomy, mastery. And Purpose. Can you get us started by telling us a little bit more about autonomy, please? [00:16:45] Shelley: Autonomy, can I ever? I mean, I have my own business, I homeschool my kids, and really Rowena, you know this about me, I generally like to do everything my own way. So, autonomy is a core part of who I am. As much as I think I'm my own unique autonomous snowflake, Daniel Pink argues that we all have a deep seated need for autonomy or are driven by autonomy. [00:17:15] In fact, he says it's our default setting to be autonomous and self directed. So essentially, autonomy is the desire to direct our own lives. And in the book he explains that people need autonomy over the four T's. So those are task, so that's what they do, time, when they do it, team, Who they do it with and technique, how they do their work. So listeners might be thinking that this is a utopian autonomous landscape, and it's not exactly what a typical workplace looks like, but. As you mentioned in the beginning, I think the shifts happened, particularly around COVID and the lockdowns and everything, they did change a lot of things, but I do think there's still a lot of work to be done here to really take autonomy Seriously. [00:18:16] And here I'm reminded about the book Workstyle, which we discussed in episodes 29, 30 and 31. We even interviewed the authors, Lizzie Penny and Alex Hurst. And one of the main pillars of their work style revolution is autonomy about the way you do your work. We always love these crossovers that happen between the different books that we, that we're reading. [00:18:40] Um, but yeah, I'd like to share a personal example Of autonomy,. I want to talk about autonomy of task. That's what I do. And, you know, I do a lot of copywriting for clients, but recently I've kind of wanted, to change and I've had the shift to teach people how to write and design their own websites instead of doing the more done for you copywriting approach. [00:19:07] So that was like the first step. An example of where I, I think had in the back of my mind, I want this autonomy in terms of, of task and what I'm actually doing. And let me shift it around so that I can feel more autonomous and actually in the process, give other people their own autonomy to write their own websites. [00:19:26] And I also just, it's just bizarre because yesterday when I was preparing for the podcast, my husband, Garen, uh, he's been using this particular AI tool for software development and his company they're a small startup and they're all using another AI tool. [00:19:43] And Garen had been trying it and he came down and he said, it's official, I hate it. And so his company has agreed to pay for that subscription for the tool that Garen wants to use. And I think that's a small example of how companies can honor the autonomy of their employees and give them autonomy over the techniques, like how they do their work and the tools that they use. So, Rowena, do you have any examples of how autonomy can be an important factor in terms of intrinsic motivation, um, either for yourself or perhaps how it's come up for your clients? Anonymously, of course. [00:20:19] Rowena: Sure. Um, yeah, for sure. I have a client who I'm thinking of and she was starting a new role and she was super nervous and it was a massive leap for her. So she'd been in a very defined role with pretty much no autonomy where she was basically working for a wage. So she was one of those people who said, I'm just doing it for the money. [00:20:39] But the new role with a new boss was almost completely autonomous. The outcome, which was to keep the client, on site clients, happy, was the only thing that really mattered. Everything else So how she did it, you know, who she worked with was up to her. And at first it was really actually kind of scary to be thrown into this space with so much autonomy when she hadn't experienced it before. [00:21:01] But over the handful of weeks we worked together, she actually moved from being quite uncertain and timid to a lot more confident. And I think it's because she had autonomy. She could use her initiatives. She could do things that worked for her. She could make the role her own. And she was rewarded for that. [00:21:18] Um, and of course her intrinsic motivation meant that she was suddenly having all these ideas where before she'd felt like she was devoid of ideas. She said, Oh no, I, you know, I'm not an ideas person. I'm not very creative. But now she was in a role where she had the opportunity to be autonomous. And so suddenly, she was a different person. She was ideas all over the place and she was improving her own processes because she wanted to, not because she was told to. So she'd do something and then find a way to do it better. And she was excited to do that. Um, and what I loved the most was she nailed it, right? And she was getting praise from her clients and from her managers and she loves her job. [00:21:56] So she [00:21:57] Shelley: That is so [00:21:58] Rowena: different person. It's [00:21:59] Shelley: I think that really is testament to what he's saying here is like, I think companies can be scared of giving employees autonomy. Um, but there we go. And especially in the creative side of things of her job. I love that. That's, [00:22:13] that's [00:22:14] Rowena: and it wasn't a crew. That's right. And it wasn't a creative role. It was basically keeping onsite clients happy. So in other organizations, it's basically, you know, like a reception admin person. That's, and therefore in most organizations, that's a pretty defined, pretty narrowly. Um, described role, but she also was very box ticking. [00:22:35] She was very, very lucky that she also had an exceptional boss who understands all about this. I suspect she's read Drive multiple times. Um, and so I knew, I also was familiar with the boss and I knew that she was all about supporting her staff to have autonomy and everything. [00:22:52] But let's move on for a minute because I think we've talked about autonomy, which leads us very nicely into the next element of intrinsic motivation. [00:23:01] Because my client also developed this, as she was working autonomously. And that thing is mastery. So mastery is the urge we have to get better and better at something that matters to us. So my client did that. So she was improving her own processes. She was getting better and better because it mattered to her. [00:23:20] So motivation 2. 0, which was the carrot and sticks, was all about getting people to comply. But motivation 3. 0, which is the intrinsic, it's about getting people fully engaged. Now if you've been in any kind of people and culture team, which is HR by another name, engagement and employee engagement is really, really hot because that's how we retain people. [00:23:44] We have people who are engaged, they want to be at work, they want to do the work. And it is also the only real way to master something. To get better at things that actually matter, we need to be engaged. And mastery is also a key part of our deeper drive. So if you want to be intrinsically motivated, mastery is pretty much essential. [00:24:05] So it starts with the how. It's those magical moments where the challenge is just right for your skill level. That's why really good workplaces throw in what we call Goldilocks tasks. They're not too hard, they're not too easy, but they give us the satisfaction. of achieving something. And we can do the same thing with our kids. [00:24:24] If we're talking about parenting, we can do the same things for ourselves. I do the same thing with my coaching clients. I will often put in an action or a goal, more likely an action, where it's, it's not an easy ticker box, but it's a relatively low hanging fruit ticker box, you know, like it's, it gives you the satisfaction of having made progress. [00:24:43] But anyway. Here's the thing about mastery. First off, mastery is a mindset. You have to believe that your abilities aren't fixed, that they can always be improved. So that relates to the growth mindset idea, but it's also embracing being a lifelong learner. Second, mastery is tough. It actually takes serious effort, grit and practice and, you know, a fair bit of hard work. And And third, mastery is not a destination. You will never actually fully reach it. It's a little frustrating, but it's also super alluring because there's always room to grow. You'll never get to a point where you can tick the box and say, You'll never get to a point where you can tick the box and say, Great, I have now achieved mastery in whatever, because there's always scope for improvement. [00:25:30] So Shelley, I'm kind of starting to see why you like this book so much, because you're all about always having room to grow and improve things. [00:25:39] Shelley: And I love this idea of mastery. When you first hear the word, you think, Oh, you have to be a master. You have to be top of your game, but it's, it's not about that. It is about the journey more and getting better and better, not the best. It's about getting better and better at something that matters. [00:25:56] And I think that's the twist, about mastery and why it possibly flips things on its head. You know, I think some of us get demotivated when we're not top of the game, when we haven't got a hundred percent. And, but this kind of mindset, this mastery mindset goes, you've got this drive inside of you to get better and better, even if it's 1 percent per day, if we're going to go mathematically at it. [00:26:20] And yes, I was, when I revisited this book, I noticed the teachings of Carol Dweck, who talks about growth mindsets. And I have come across that now in my later life, with my kids, of the difference between a fixed mindset and a growth mindset. And I think, oh, With my kids, I've been very careful after reading the teachings of Carol's Dweck, um, to not to praise the process rather than praising the outputs and also being a bit careful about praise, uh, so that they're not just relying on me for their praise, but that they're enjoying the task in and of itself. [00:26:56] So I love that, like what I'm learning for my kids and now what's coming up for me in You know, adult life is just aligning very perfectly. And yes, as you say, mastery takes that hard work and that grit. It's, it's fun fun work. It's fun hard work, because as you said, in that definition, you, you get in better and better at something that matters. I must say, if I find myself feeling demotivated, it's often because this element is missing -mastery. And so I have to find ways of bringing more mastery into my life without being perfectionist about it. Uh, so I will tell you, Rowena, I have two blisters on my right hand fingers because, um, and I've got different types of blisters on my left hand because I've been playing bass guitar. [00:27:47] So the, the, the left hand has been pressing down the strings and the right hand's been. Doing some really cool bass riffs, but, um, I have taken up bass guitar in my little family band and it's really incredible. Am I going to be Pino Palladino, John Mayer's bassist? No, certainly not. Am I even going to match the skills of a bass guitarist here in a local band in Jo'burg? [00:28:13] No, but am I being driven by mastery of the bass guitar? Well, yes, I am, uh, in the hours rehearsal that we have with our family band and my son's drum teacher comes to teach us, he's a multi instrumentalist, I really want to learn as much bass and singing too, as I can. And I find myself practicing simply for the joy of it. [00:28:37] So that's like mastery in action as an intrinsic drive within me. [00:28:43] Rowena: That's so cool. I've just, I just feel like somewhere in your rehearsal, you need someone to yell out funky bass, and then you need to start doing like some full on funky bass in there. [00:28:53] Shelley: I have my moments in the spotlight. [00:28:55] Rowena: Yeah. I'm going to, I'm going to find you some tracks where there is someone who calls out funky bass and then the bass guitar takes over and does like a bass guitar solo, [00:29:03] Shelley: been such a stretch because I play the piano and I play regular guitar and [00:29:10] I've not played bass guitar before. It's so different. And I think I was playing more funky bass and I need to play more rocky bass. And I didn't think there was a difference, but then when I did. [00:29:20] Do the more rocky bass. I was like, ah, okay, this really has an effect. So yeah, that, that mastery journey is, is super cool. [00:29:28] But yeah, Ro, do you have any examples to share for us about mastery? I'm thinking your novel writing to me, like that, that sings of mastery to me. [00:29:39] Rowena: yes, it's not quite as cool as learning how to play bass guitar. [00:29:42] Shelley: I [00:29:43] Rowena: It's a [00:29:43] Shelley: You're a [00:29:44] Rowena: of, it's a yeah, it's a different kind of mastery. And it's definitely a journey. I think you used that word before Shelley. It's a journey. And so like you, I know I'm never going to be You know, a Pulitzer prize winner, or probably any kind of prize, but I'm getting better every day and I'm working at getting better. [00:30:01] And for me, that's that key part of mastery. It's that consistent effort and an openness to learn and to have that growth mindset of saying, I don't know what I don't know and taking feedback and incorporating it and learning from it. Um, I think we even talked about that in the interview when you interviewed me in Last year when the book came out was, you know, being receptive to feedback and learning and learning and learning. [00:30:25] And that's over the years since that's come out. It's been a lot of, um, yeah, maybe that is a journey of mastery. [00:30:33] Shelley: A hundred percent agree. And I've, you know, being alongside you on this journey, just seeing how you've like, you know, now gone to writing classes and, and are taking feedback from editors to fellow writers to beta readers and, um, and building it into your habits and that kind of thing. [00:30:50] I think it's all, you know, It's coming from this intrinsic place. So, yeah, I think, um, just to your earlier point of, making intrinsic motivation practical in the real world, I think these three things will help you every, and I mean, this to listeners and everyone, I think focusing on these three aspects will help you to make intrinsic motivation more practical. [00:31:13] So I think that is a very good point. Point to tell you what that third one is. So we've done autonomy, we've done mastery, and the third element of intrinsic motivation is purpose. And that is the yearning to do what we do in the service of something larger or greater than ourselves. Now, honestly, this doesn't have to be something totally altruistic, save the world type stuff, although it could be, but for me, purpose is this term, legacy type stuff that really drives us. [00:31:50] And Daniel Pink says that humans are wired to seek purpose, something bigger and more lasting than themselves. But for a long time, businesses treated purpose like a nice to have. As long as it didn't get in the way of so called more important things. And those more important things were often profits. [00:32:09] But this is changing a lot in business where issues like environmental protection, um, and inclusivity, they're not just side projects, but they're the core of the whole business. [00:32:21] Rowena: I've noticed there have been an increase in for purpose businesses where businesses are still making a profit, but it might be smaller because the prime Reason for their existence is for the specific purpose that they've articulated and shared with their prospective clients. So that, that's definitely grown a lot in the 15 years since this book was first published. [00:32:42] Shelley: Yeah, I think of a company like Patagonia. I've got a book about Patagonia and I think they're certainly not the only one. And then you get all the, B Corps. [00:32:50] Rowena: Yes, so a lot of the, a lot of the organizations that I have either worked with or I support and purchase products from are B Corps because the purpose. And the environmental impact and the fact that it cares about, all the people in the processes as well, ticks a lot of boxes in terms of my values. [00:33:07] So it's also, it's purpose led, a purpose led organization. So it's, it's, then they're often, they are quite big businesses, but they've had to go through a very rigorous assessment process and change a lot of things in order to be certified as a B Corp. [00:33:22] Shelley: Yes. And I think even for us in our own independent businesses, a lot of our listeners have their own solo businesses. Our purpose, our why, which we talked about in episode 48, it's really integral to what keeps us motivated in the long term and what keeps us getting up in the morning and, and doing the work that we do. [00:33:45] Um, So yeah, I really do feel I'm driven by a sense of purpose, this like legacy aspect. I think of my children, um, learning, like my lifelong learning, but encouraging other people to learn education more broadly. Entrepreneurship, books, just sharing the love of books with people. Music now is like really like, it's always been there, but it's like really come to the surface now. [00:34:11] So these things drive me beyond any extrinsic immediate reward. There's this drive beneath these things that runs deeper than money or other rewards like recognition or that kind of thing, or awards. And of course, We all need money. I think maybe that's also just important to state here. We all need money. [00:34:31] None of, none of this work has to be done for free or for some kind of charity for us to tap into purpose. But when we, when we do tap into purpose, I think our jobs become so much more satisfying. And then we're more satisfied on a deep level. But this doesn't mean that all of us need to, you know, become volunteers and completely do everything for free. [00:34:55] Uh, yeah, I kind of think of my kids in terms of purpose. We recently sold a bunch of our secondhand books, you know, as homeschoolers, you collect a lot of books and curricula and that kind of thing. And we had a secondhand book sale on our public holiday recently. And I was like, wow, these kids are really driven by money because we agreed that we would split the profits between us as a family. [00:35:19] And then they helped me, they helped me prep the books, they helped me price them. They were looking up online what the books cost new, et cetera. And I was like, wow, these kids are really motivated. Are they money grabbing? Am I raising two little capitalists? [00:35:33] But I've realized, They're motivated by purpose. So in my kid's case, it's a TD 17 set of drums for the older one and a Roland Juno keyboard for the younger one. So there's this purpose. I think our band purpose has kind of infused the family and the money is the route to, Getting those things that they feel, I think are like part of their identity, part of their purpose. [00:36:00] And it's, it's certainly working. [00:36:04] Rowena: Yeah, and I think that's a really good point because it's an energetic exchange, right? That's what money can be seen as, which I think, um, Denise Duffield Thomas talks about that in Chill and Prosper, [00:36:14] um, but she [00:36:15] Shelley: Another episode on that. [00:36:16] Rowena: yeah, yeah, that's right. So she talks about that as. and energetic exchange. And purpose, I think, if we think about it is as, as an intrinsic motivator, it's absolutely huge because purpose can create. make people do all sorts of things that they might not otherwise never have done. [00:36:34] So it's, it's enormous as a motivator. And I have heaps to say about it, probably enough for an entire another episode. So I won't go into a lot of it now, but I will say it's one of the areas I work with clients on, because finding that sweet spot in a career where the work feels meaningful and purposeful, You're more likely to do really well at it because it's enjoyable for you. [00:36:54] You're interested in it. And as we mentioned earlier, you'd be engaged in it. So it's kind of win win for everybody. So I do do a lot of stuff in that space. And I think it, there's a, it's really important to have purpose. It doesn't have to be though, a purpose in your career that you can be having a purposeful career where the purpose of your career is because you want Be around for your family. [00:37:16] It doesn't. They do two things. Don't have to be mutually exclusive. [00:37:20] Shelley: Yeah. That's an interesting one. Sometimes you are just earning the money so that you can then live the life outside of the work. And I always think of your phrase to you that the ideal is to get paid to be you, you know, it [00:37:34] was coming. You know, I think we, we When you can match purpose and match all these intrinsic motivators in elements with a vocation and a job that the world needs, and then that they will pay for, like that's, that's [00:37:47] ideal. Hmm, that's where you, that's where you want to be. [00:37:51] It's Shelley hopping in here. Now, Rowena and I had so much to say about Drive, and the rest of this conversation went in a direction of comparing Drive to some of the other books that we've read. Of course, one of those being our favorites, The Four Tendencies by Gretchen Rubin. And we talked about A comparison between intrinsic motivation and how does that fit in with the four tendencies. [00:38:16] So we decided to package that up as a bonus episode. So the next episode that you can look forward to in two weeks time continues this discussion of intrinsic motivation and extends it into some of the other books that we have featured in Two Booked Up so far. So please tune in in two weeks time for that episode. [00:38:36] For now, we're going to wrap things up today. [00:38:40] Okay. It's now time for our listeners to choose their own adventure. There's been so many, so many things that we've uncovered. Rowena, I'm going to hand that over to you. Can you give our listeners two suggestions that they could try? [00:38:54] I, [00:38:56] Rowena: so I'm going to be a bit cheeky and for suggestion number one, with all this talk about motivation, I'd love to invite everyone to grab my brand new free guide, Three Steps to Fall Back in Love with Your Job. Because maybe you used to love what you do, but the spark has gone and now you feel like you're going through the motions, which means perhaps your intrinsic motivation needs a little bit of love. [00:39:17] So the guide gives you my top three tips to help you reignite your enjoyment of your job, which, spoiler alert, will actually help boost your motivation. So that's the first tip, is to go download that and you can get that for free. We'll put the links in the show notes. [00:39:34] Shelley: I think that's a great guide and I don't think it's cheeky at all. I think it's a really wonderful resource for everyone. [00:39:39] Rowena: And then the second suggestion is check in with those three elements we've been talking about. So the three elements of intrinsic motivation, autonomy, mastery, and purpose. So if you're feeling a bit demotivated, consider how you could tap into just one of those elements. [00:39:54] To boost your feeling of motivation, like Shelley mentioned, sometimes one of them, she often realizes mastery was the one she needed to focus on. For you, it might feel different. So you just have a little play with that. [00:40:04] All right. So now Shelley, before we wrap things up, tell us what you're reading at the moment. [00:40:09] Yes. [00:40:13] Shelley: reading Pride and Prejudice by Jane Austen. [00:40:15] Haha. [00:40:16] Rowena: all time books. [00:40:17] Shelley: Oh, well, it is such a beautiful experience because it's been read by Faith Moore on a most delightful podcast called Storytime for Grownups. And she always invites you to brew a pot of tea and to come and sit and listen to her reading the book. [00:40:35] She reads the book for you. Chapter by chapter, or with Pride and Prejudice, she's reading groups of chapters together, then she just pauses very briefly with some quick notes where, you know, the classic literature leaves us modern readers a little bit stumped. And you're like, what do they mean? Um, so she doesn't detract from the story. [00:40:54] She's got a very artful way of Just posting a little, it's almost like a footnote. And, um, and then at the beginning of each episode, she will take questions from the previous episode, answers a few questions, and then she reads the next chapter. So it's such a delightful experience. Um, [00:41:15] Rowena: So I, does, I would love to know, does she say things like felicitatious disposition? Because I used to love that because someone used to say to me, what does felicitatious disposition mean? I'm like, it's the fancy way of saying someone is happy. [00:41:28] Shelley: has come out of, like, he was a man of great felicity. Yeah, so I'm quite excited to talk more about that podcast in a future episode because this is the second book that I have read with Faith on Storytime for Grown Ups, but I will just say that I'm thoroughly enjoying Pride and Prejudice. [00:41:49] So we will continue our conversation about books offline of this podcast. We'll continue our discussion about intrinsic motivation, about Drive, about all the things. Please go and connect with me on LinkedIn. [00:42:01] I'm Shelley Tonkin Smith over there, and you can learn more about my copywriting services and resources for online service providers and educators at shelleysmithcreative. com. That's also where you can find all of my resources on using AI tools effectively and finding tech tools for your websites and online home. [00:42:23] And where can listeners find you, Ro? [00:42:25] Rowena: Yeah, you can find me at Rowena Mabbott on Instagram. I'm also on LinkedIn. Also, just search Rowena Mabbott and you can always visit RowenaMabbott. com for information about my coaching services, the novels I've published, and all my resources to support you in harnessing your strengths to live with more clarity and confidence. [00:42:42] And that includes the new free guide I mentioned earlier. And of course, please remember to visit twobookedup. com for show notes with links to all the books we've mentioned and the episodes, and to download the 24 for 2024 Reading Challenge PDF for free. [00:42:58] Shelley: You've been listening to Two Booked Up. I'm Shelley Tonkin Smith. [00:43:03] Rowena: And I'm Rowena Mabbott. We'll see you in two weeks time for another episode of Two Booked Up. [00:43:08]