Episode Transcript
TBU 59 - Regrets
[00:00:00] Shelley: Hello and welcome to Two Booked Up.
[00:00:06] I'm Shelley Tonkin Smith, here with my podcast co host and biz bestie, Rowena Mabbott. Hi, Ro!
[00:00:14] Rowena: Hi, Shelley. I'm so excited because we are discussing our very first memoir. One that is still a bestseller, read by over a million people worldwide and available in 32 languages. Yes, the book we are discussing is Bronnie Ware's The Top Five Regrets of the Dying, A Life Transformed by the Dearly Departing.
[00:00:37] Shelley: Yes, so Bronnie Ware worked in palliative care for many years, spending time with people in their final weeks of life. And she noticed something powerful. Five common regrets kept showing up. Regrets that, let's be honest, most of us have probably felt at some point in our lives.
[00:00:55] And so these are not just regrets of the dying, but also those of the living. So today we're going to unpack those regrets as Bronnie details in her book, The Top Five Regrets of the Dying. And we're going to talk about how they might be showing up in our own lives and just share some of our own thoughts on how to make sure that we don't wait till our end to change things.
[00:01:22] So, this is not just a discussion, but a call to action, to start making these changes now.
[00:01:29] Rowena: Absolutely. And we have loads to discuss. So let's get started.
[00:01:34] Welcome to Two Booked Up. I'm Rowena Mabbott.
[00:01:41] Shelley: And I'm Shelley Tonkin Smith, we're two well read best friends.
[00:01:45] Rowena: And now you are an honorary member of our book club. We're going to fast forward you to the mind blown and mic drop parts of those business and personal development books that are probably on your must read list.
[00:01:57] Shelley: Because as busy, multi passionate working parents, we know how hard it is to find time to read, but we also know how much you love learning, growing, and making a difference in the world.
[00:02:09] Rowena: So treat yourself to a bit of bookish conversation, whether you've read the book or not.
[00:02:14] Shelley: With your two friends, on Two Booked Up.
[00:02:23] Rowena: The top five regrets of the dying, A Life Transformed by the Dearly Departed, or Departing book by Bronnie Ware is not just a bestseller. It's also a really powerful tool for personal growth and self reflection. And as we mentioned in the intro, these regrets are not unique to people who are dying, but a part of the human experience, and we believe they can make a significant impact on your life.
[00:02:48] So let's dive right in with the first regret that Brony heard the most often from her patients. I wish I had the courage to live a life true to myself, not the life others expected of me.
[00:03:01] So an example here is pursuing a career path just because it seemed like the right thing to do. And plenty of my clients have been in that situation, and I'd have to say there might have been moments in my own life when I've done this. Or, another example, falling into the trap of doing any of those things that other people expect, whether that's family, society, or friends.
[00:03:24] And I think what's kind of the most scary about this is that it happens so subtly. You make a small compromise here, a little sacrifice there. And before you know it, you're living a life that doesn't actually feel like your own anymore. And it starts with innocent choices. Um, and I think we've all been there where we agree to plans we're not actually excited about, or we take on responsibilities that don't align with our values or perhaps with our interests.
[00:03:49] And each decision seems minor, yet they accumulate over time, which can lead to a disconnection from our true self.
[00:03:57] yeah
[00:03:58] Shelley: And I, I like that you mentioned there, Rowena, that you felt this regret over your life and that your clients come to you sort of feeling this regret at some point in their lives. Often in your case, because you are a career coach, you specialize in that area, it's that they're looking for some kind of shift, some kind of change in their career.
[00:04:16] So, so I think a I just at the outset want to state that this is like a, it feels very heavy about regrets, but these regrets are going to be something that you're going to use for the better and to, to actually make changes in the here and now. And the other thing that you mentioned there is this idea of expectations, so all those things that other people expect of you, or that you expect of yourself, that you think you should do. So of course, this links up to the Four Tendencies, which deals with our response to outer and inner expectations. The Four Tendencies is by Gretchen Rubin, of course, I say, of course, because we talk about it a lot on this show.
[00:05:00] And I think of Obligers, those are the people who are acting because of outer expectations. And so I think Rowena that Obligers would be particularly susceptible to this regret. But honestly, I do think all tendencies could feel this regret of having the courage to live a life true to themselves or myself.
[00:05:21] Um, not this one that others expect of me, but yeah, of course we're, we're not living life completely for ourselves and our own interests, but There are those warning signs. If you feel like you're navigating life on autopilots and constantly feeling like your interests are overshadowed by the expectations of others, then just notice and, and make some of those adjustments that's like, you know, like your clients do when they come and coach with you and, and make those adjustments, whether it's in their career or in their life so that they can feel more true to themselves.
[00:05:57] Rowena: And I also say, if you've just heard what we've said and you're thinking, Hmm, the Four Tendencies, that sounds interesting, but what are obliges? Make sure you check out episodes one to four of the Two Booked Up Podcast. We will leave the links in the show notes because we discussed Gretchen Rubin's book, The Four Tendencies, and we share a lot of information about it there.
[00:06:16] Shelley: Yeah, thanks, Ro. And I think the other thing that stood out to me from Bronnie's reflections and the stories in the book, because the book is really wonderful in that it packs a lot of stories about these regrets.
[00:06:30] Rowena: Yeah, and also, Bronnie's interpretation of when she's been working with those people and she's seen these regrets. So we would recommend read the book if this is after you're listening to this episode you're interested, because the content in the book definitely changes your perspective on a lot of things.
[00:06:46] Shelley: Yes, and there's also Bronnie's website, BronnieWare. com, that you can go and have a look for more on Bronnie's writing and her reflections on these five regrets as well. But yes, I think those stories in the book, that these people were looking back at their lives. It's years and decades later, realizing they hadn't done the things that mattered to them.
[00:07:10] And so, yes, I think it's a reminder for us right here and now to really check in with ourselves. You know, like what do we actually want? And I think what's heartening to me is that you said these things happen subtly and they can happen in small shifts and suddenly you're not living the life you want to.
[00:07:30] but It's heartening to me because those small shifts can actually get you out of that regret and more towards the life you want, you know, it doesn't have to be a completely like abandon everything and completely change careers or like, you know, you can make small shifts. To feel more like you're living the life that is your life and that feels more like yourself. And so, yes, that's my sort of positive spin. Look how you've influenced me, Rowena. My positive spin on that regret is just regularly check in with yourself, check in with the expectations of others and, and make small changes in that direction that feels more like you.
[00:08:09] Rowena: Yeah, for sure. And I think, thank you for acknowledging that. But I also think that there's that whole bit around, you said before, like, how do we know what we actually want? Like checking in with ourselves, because that's another question that I think we often avoid because maybe it feels a bit self indulgent, like we really can't ask ourselves what we really, really want because we have obligations.
[00:08:30] We've got bills to pay. We've got work to do. We've got kids to raise. But this is,what I guess, where the real power of the book is, is to say, no, it is important to take a moment and actually really reflect upon what do we want in, out of our life? Because if we don't ask the question, that only is the guarantee that we will have regrets later on.
[00:08:51] And that for me reminds me a little bit of Oliver Berkman's book, 4, 000 Weeks, which we discussed in episodes 25, 26, and 27. And I think the powerful kind of punch in the guts for both of us in that, book Shelley was the realization that life is a whole lot shorter than many of us realize. Um, and I think that's just an, it's just an added impetus or an added reminder that we should absolutely focus on what truly matters, making the most of our limited time by prioritizing experiences over endless productivity.
[00:09:24] Shelley: Yeah, and that actually ties in beautifully with regret number two. I wish I hadn't worked so hard. And this one is huge especially in today's hustle culture, we've glamorized overwork, we've glamorized being so busy.
[00:09:43] Now there's nothing wrong with working hard. We know that. But we're talking here about Working so hard to the exclusion of other important things. These other important things that matter get displaced out of our lives because of working so hard. And we touched on this idea of burnout and the three different types of overwork leading to burnout.
[00:10:09] And that was in episode 45 when we discussed Feel Good Productivity by Ali Abdaal. And. Yes, I think this is a really important message for us is to put work in its right place. We can do work that we're passionate about and that we, that we want to bring into the world, but we need to be careful that it's not something we regret later in life.
[00:10:35] Rowena: Yeah, absolutely. And I think there are some really powerful stories in the book where people, it wasn't so much that they just worked hard, it was that they worked to the exclusion of everything else. So they worked so hard that they were not, their relationships suffered, or they weren't there for their kids, or they missed the best years of their life because they were so busy chasing ambitious work goals that they let everything else fall to the side, which I think is what we were talking about earlier about this idea about what matters to you. But also there is this hustle culture. And so Ali Abdaal also spoke about when you work too hard on the wrong things. And that is part of the regret too, where you're spending all this effort working on something like chasing status and taking, chasing the next promotion.
[00:11:19] But maybe you should have been putting a bit of that effort into your relationships. And although working too hard on the wrong things or working just too much generally, both those things can lead to burnout. And I think we do need to acknowledge that, Bronnie's book was written and published some time ago.
[00:11:35] And even though many companies are making a lot of progress with acknowledging the need for work life balance, there is still a culture of hustling and needing to be seen to be seen, which is something that I was grappling with in my corporate career 20 years ago, where you needed to be visible at your desk.
[00:11:53] You needed to be seen that you will you know, in the office and working. And even with working from home now, there's still some organizations that really prefer, they don't believe you're properly working unless they can see you sitting at your desk in the office. And so there are a lot of people who wear this kind of, I'm pushing myself, I'm burning the candles at both ends, they wear that as a bit of a badge of honor, even now, having spoken to a number of my friends working in the corporate space, it's still, sadly, very prevalent.
[00:12:20] Now, the other thing Bronnie shares most of these stories and regrets. This regret particularly was expressed by men, which makes sense when you think about traditional gender roles.
[00:12:31] Men are often feeling more pressured to be the provider. And as we mentioned, it often has a high cost at the cost of family or personal time.
[00:12:40] Shelley: Yeah. And I think it would be interesting now to see, because I think it's not just men anymore, you know, women are very much in the workforce, climbing the corporate ladder, sometimes having to fight harder to get that status, get those promotions. So women are definitely feeling this to And, um, that's not even considering all the invisible work that women typically do in the home, if they're mothers, with their kids and so on and so on.
[00:13:06] You, you know, it's not also all just the work at the traditional office work, but it's all this invisible work that perhaps we, spend our time doing all the, you know, the, taking care of the household and all this invisible work to the exclusion of our relationships as well. Um, and we feel like, yes, we're doing this for our kids.
[00:13:25] We're doing this for our families, but, um, it's, it might, it might not. Be the thing that matters the most in that moment. So yeah, I think it's this relentless pursuit of success, whether that is in the home or in the office. In doing that, we often sacrifice our health. We talked about burnouts, our relationships, our personal wellbeing.
[00:13:48] Believing that achievement will bring us fulfillment. And I was reading in Oliver Bergman's new book, Meditations for Mortals, he says, there's this idea of like, that we need to validate our existence by working hard. And that is wrong. That is incorrect. But I think we come into the world going, well, I need to deserve my place here.
[00:14:08] And really, this relentless drive and this pursuit of productivity for productivity sake, can definitely lead to burnout. And a sense of emptiness, because we prioritise in this external validation of a genuine happiness inside of us. And ultimately, we must ask ourselves, if the cost of success, often measured in lost connections and compromised values, is that truly worth those fleeting so called rewards it brings?
[00:14:43] Rowena: That's a powerful question. I'm just wanted to say one quick other thing. I think that why Bronnie found that it was mostly men is because she was dealing with people who were very elderly and sick. And so when you think about at the time when this book was published, also there are not that many women who worked in the same way who are in their, you know, 80s and 90s because of the gender roles. So it's, it is quite a different scenario. It's not a statistical analysis, it's a memoir, whereas if we were looking at something that had been, you know, a scientific data led analysis we'd be having very different conversations, whereas this is absolutely a memoir and it's her personal experiences of what she found nursing people in their end of life stage,
[00:15:26] Shelley: Yeah, I think that's an important point to note of these are stories and these stories can be so powerful. I think, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't mean that, the rigorous scientific method is, you know, is better than these stories. I think this really does drive a lot of these points home, maybe, maybe even more effectively than a bunch of statistics does.
[00:15:49] Rowena: I think so for sure. Because I think that we were resonate and relate, to stories, because it's all about feeling. It's all about how we want, how we feel when we hear a story. And I guess that's my little segue of us taking us up to the third regret, which is, I wish I'd had the courage to express my feelings.
[00:16:10] Now, this is part of that whole biting our tongues idea, but also not feeling courageous or the courage to tell people how I really felt. And it's not always about. negative stuff. It's also in the stories in the book, some of them are about, I didn't have the courage to tell someone what they meant to me.
[00:16:27] There's a double edged sword with this. It's the not telling people how you feel and then ending up doing things you didn't want to do. But then there's also not telling people how you feel because you are afraid of rejection or just feeling super vulnerable and therefore holding back.
[00:16:44] And that is a very soul wounding regret to live with. And I guess the other thing that really comes up from this particular one is that when we don't speak. When we don't express our feelings, the unspoken words can effectively become like a wall between us and the people we care about. It's the good stuff, as I said, it's not just the negative stuff, it's the good stuff too.
[00:17:07] So it's important to stand up for what we believe in, but it's important to tell people who mean something to us that we care about them.
[00:17:14] Shelley: Yes. That we appreciate them, that we feel, feel gratitude for them. And yeah, you know, I think some people are so scared of getting too soppy and too, uh, and again, maybe especially men, I, I honestly feel sometimes that, Expressing my feelings, especially out verbally, speaking them out, has become like breathing for me.
[00:17:34] I feel like I really have to do it. And actually, Naming what I'm feeling and, and then telling my people about it, which, you know, I think often does come into the negative side of things of like, you know what, I'm having a grumpy day today. Like, please can, you know, please can everyone just, and, and actually name, what do you want me to do?
[00:17:55] Like, I'm like, Please can everyone just go and close the curtains so that I can feel like the house is ready for, you know, naming what you're feeling and then what you want someone to do about that. Um, it can be as simple as that, you know, it doesn't even have to be all the, let's call it soppy, kind of, I love you type stuff. Although that is very much a part about it.
[00:18:14] Rowena: But, and I think that's interesting, Shelley, because when you said that, I was like, oh, yes, snap, because we both are the only women in households full of males, husbands, and we both have boy children. And so, as we are raising our boys, hopefully into beautiful, kind boys. Good men, part of our role as mums is to role model how important it is to be able to name those feelings and for them to learn how to interpret and understand that just because we're cranky in general, doesn't mean we're necessarily specifically cranky with them, unless we specifically say, no, I am cranky at you.
[00:18:54] Shelley: Yes.
[00:18:54] Yes.
[00:18:59] Rowena: in this for the sake of doing it. It's because we feel like that's our job as mums to raise our boys into beautiful, kind hearted, open men who can become, um, allies for women in saying it's okay. We want to be able to have sensitive conversations.
[00:19:14] So sorry, it was a bit of a divergent and it's definitely off the topic, but I felt like I wanted to rally, give you a rallying support of
[00:19:21] Shelley: Oh, I'm, yes, I'm, glad. I think we, we, we talk about this a lot and, you know, I've read that. Again, particularly in men, um, often when older men feel any, any feeling coming up, they, it's interpreted as anger. And so if they're feeling sadness or if they're feeling disappointments or they're feeling frustrated, they just go, I'm angry.
[00:19:44] And there's this, And it's not anger, because they haven't been taught and they haven't been role modeled to go, wait a minute, I'm feeling funny. Okay, like, let's just call it funny for now. Let's dig into this. And. Go, oh, I'm actually really sad, or I'm really worried about this family member that's going in for an operation, or I'm feeling really frustrated that you're not contributing to the household or whatever it might be.
[00:20:11] So I think expressing those feelings and getting into the habit of expressing those feelings has multiple benefits to, you know, I would say even beyond regrets. I think it's a really good, um, way to be.
[00:20:25] Rowena: To,
[00:20:26] Shelley: be
[00:20:27] Rowena: I agree. I heartily endorse that.
[00:20:29] Shelley: oh, that, that was a nice little, a tangent. But yeah, I, I also really do feel that, expressing those positive feelings like gratitude for others, telling them how much you value them, I think is, is really positive.
[00:20:41] And give that gift to other people to go, well, this other person really values me. This is amazing. But yes, you do talk about the courage to express your feelings and it does remind me of a book I'm reading at the moment called Crucial Conversations, which is a read along in, my friend Anne's Leader's Library. And this book talks about when the stakes are high and when the opinions vary and you've got high emotions, then having this crucial conversation is very important, and the book is all about how do you have that crucial conversation? Because it's important to be brave, to be courageous, to have those crucial conversations, and in the process you will improve the relationship.
[00:21:25] You know, most of the time I think we think if we have a, a. really honest conversation and tell someone about how unhappy we are or something, you know, some negative feeling that we're going to destroy the relation relationship and think, Oh, well, we'll just cancel that relationship. And because we need to get a particular result.
[00:21:42] And so it means we have to cancel the relationship. Um, but it's actually working through those feelings. that can strengthen a relationship and get the positive results that you want to. So I think this works with your co workers at the office or your colleagues that you work with, but also at home with your spouse, with your kids and that kind of thing.
[00:22:02] So yeah, that's, it's just interesting that those books kind of tied together there. But yes, Ro, I think we're ready to move on to regret number four. Can you introduce that one for us?
[00:22:13] Rowena: Yeah. I just want to say that Crucial Conversations book sounds awesome. And we will pop a link for that in the show notes too, as well as a link for the Leaders Library,.
[00:22:21] So back to this book. Bronnie's patients reminded her, that not expressing ourselves can leave us feeling disconnected and misunderstood, which does tie in to regret number four, which is, I wish I had stayed in touch with my friends.
[00:22:37] Now there are a lot of stories in there and some of them I should warn you are quite tearjerker, like I had a bit of a little weep as I was reading some of these stories. But, in essence, the idea is we get So wrapped up in work, in our family, in our daily life, that as adults, we forget to nurture our friendships.
[00:22:56] But at the end of the day, those relationships, our friendships particularly, are what give life its color. Now, we talked a little bit about giving life color and making time for that in episode 40, when we discussed Tranquility by Tuesday by Laura Laura Vanderkamp. And then there's the One of my favourites, we've talked about the importance of staying in touch with our friends and having really good relationships with them as a core requirement for ageing well, as uncovered by masses of research, which was shared in episode 54 when we discussed From Strength to Strength.
[00:23:30] Shelley: Yes, of course, and From Strength to Strength was also about feeling good, maintaining meaning and purpose as we get older, which then contributes to our sense of happiness. Um, but yeah, this, this friendships one is an interesting one for me because, not Rowena, don't think me a cold hearted, fair weather friend, but I, I don't think all friendships Need to last a lifetime.
[00:23:55] And I don't think we need to feel guilty about not staying in touch with every person we've been friends with over the various seasons of our life. And I don't think that's what
[00:24:04] Bronnie is saying.
[00:24:05] Um,
[00:24:06] Rowena: not. Because that would be exhausting.
[00:24:10] Shelley: you know, I think I, this is where I love Kendra Adachi's take on friendship. She's got a really great podcast episode that we'll link to in the show notes.
[00:24:18] It's two things. that make friendship easier. Where she says that you need to invite people in, and that's in The Lazy Genius Way, another book that we've discussed on episodes six to ten. Her lazy genius principle number eight is to let people in. And I think that's a very powerful principle, and I can imagine that, in these, in a person's dying days, they, they regret not having let more people in.
[00:24:46] And I think this principle of letting people in speaks to journeying along with others through this life, accepting their help and support, which I think is sometimes even harder than giving help and support. But of course, that's also part of it, giving and receiving that help and support, and that feeling like that you're part of something bigger than just your individual life, right?
[00:25:10] You know, we often get so wrapped up, as you say, in, in our own demands of life. And I think friends are what brings that, that colour to that journey, to those different seasons along the way. So, I do think that leads to a happier and more contented life.
[00:25:29] And so that brings us to the final and fifth regret that Bronnie heard. And that is, I wish I had let myself be happier. Yeah. So this one's a bit of a paradox, don't you think? I mean, because we all want to be happy, happy always seems to be the pinnacle of how we want to feel.
[00:25:48] But many of us are standing in our own way.
[00:25:53] Rowena: Yeah, and look, I think it's like we don't give ourselves permission to be happy. It's like we think we have to earn it or it's something that happens later. Like we'll get, we'll be happy when, um, I don't know, there's very much that idea of I'll be happy when I get a promotion or I'll be happy when life calms down.
[00:26:10] But as a multitude of books have shared happiness is a choice that we can make every day. And it's not necessarily an outcome. It's a, it's an action. So we are being happy rather than happy being like the destination that we're going to hit.
[00:26:26] And we make that choice every day. And I guess we talked about in this podcast, it's often the little things, it's those baby steps that we can choose to help us feel that little bit happier each day, or a little bit more content or a little bit more purposeful.
[00:26:39] Shelley: Yes, yes. It is definitely those little moments. And choosing, making the choice to, to go, to go. Do I need to hold this burden? Do I need to take life so seriously all the time, you know, and choosing to let that go? And it makes me think of episode 42, actually, of Life in Five Senses by Gretchen Rubin.
[00:27:01] She's also written a book called The Happiness Project. And she has a podcast called Happier with Gretchen Rubin. So she's really our happiness guru. But in Life in Five Senses, Gretchen described All of these experiences that she had with her senses and of having more fun and living in the moment, the here and now, savouring those present moments.
[00:27:24] And all of those moments helped her to feel a little happier. And again, not just that. Take life overly seriously. Because honestly, I think all of this talk of regrets and getting to the end of one's life can seem a little heavy. And we certainly don't want to leave you on a heavy note. And I do hope that we've shown you the positive side of, of grasping these regrets and making changes.
[00:27:47] I also don't think that's Bronnie's, um, I think that she wants us to make the changes here and now in the land of the living.
[00:27:58] Rowena: Yeah, absolutely Shelley. The whole end of the book isn't about saying, and now, you know, you're destined to have these regrets. It's much more a call to action saying, please learn from the, because that's why even the subtitle of the book is Lessons from the Dearly Departing.
[00:28:11] It's about saying, don't make these, don't have these regrets, make the changes now. And I also want to note that all five regrets, I think, build on each other. They all, they're not individual regrets, they are all intertwined. If you make a change in one area, it will flow on to the other ones as well.
[00:28:27] So I think the main question is what can we learn from these regrets? And I'd say from my perspective, Bronnie's book reminds Us and me, that it's never too late to make a change. We don't have to wait till a certain point in our lives or the end of our lives or a certain age, often people feel like they've got to make their big decisions when their age ends with a zero or a five, but that's rubbish.
[00:28:50] We can just decide today. Let's do things differently. We can reflect and adjust whatever is required in the moment, rather than waiting to do it in some future point.
[00:29:00] Shelley: absolutely. And as we talked about in our other book that we discussed about regrets in the title, you knew I'd get there, Rowena, and I'm sure listeners are probably like, you've already discussed a book about regrets. That was The Power of Regrets by Daniel Pink in episode 44. And in it Dan Pink dives into how our regrets can actually be a tool for growth rather than being things that bring you down.
[00:29:27] And he, in that book, breaks down regrets into four types and shows us how examining these can really help clarify what we value most in life. And it's a refreshing take because he That instead of running from our regrets, we should embrace them as a way to live more authentically and to make better choices moving forward.
[00:29:50] So I think The Top 5 Regrets of the Dying and The Power of Regret can be a great pair in your to be read list. So yeah, I think overall, let's take this as a nudge to live more authentically, to be work less. To express ourselves more, to nurture our relationships, and to choose happiness now, not leave it for later.
[00:30:14] So with that, it is time for our listeners to choose their own adventure. Rowena, can you give us two suggestions that our listeners could try?
[00:30:23] Rowena: Absolutely. So suggestion number one, connect, make an effort to reach out to your friends or family, even if it's just a quick call or message, a little note saying, I'm thinking of you or a quick call to say, I just wanted to say hello and let you know that you're in my thoughts. And actually hearing that person's voice is fantastic.
[00:30:42] And then the second suggestion is to seek joy. Now this is a bit out there, but it's very up my alley. So this week or next, maybe set aside some time to pursue an activity that brings you joy.
[00:30:55] It could be a hobby, Or it could be what Shelley and I love to do, reading a great book, or it could be something else. So this is part of your prioritizing your happiness now, which will help prevent future regrets.
[00:31:08] So, okay, we are going to wrap things up there, but not before Shelley, you tell us what you're reading at the moment.
[00:31:15] Shelley: Well, if I don't say so myself, I think this book dovetails perfectly into what we've just been discussing. I'm reading Meditations for Mortals by Oliver Berkman. The subtitle of the book is Four Weeks to Embrace Your Limitations and Make Time for What Counts. And we've done 4, 000 weeks in a previous podcast by Oliver Berkman, and I'd call this week's The Practical Version of 4, 000 Weeks.
[00:31:43] It's set up as a daily reader that you can read over four weeks or 28 days. You can read it from cover to cover. But I am loving just doing the format. Like reading it one chapter each day. And the chapter titles include things like, Too much information on the art of reading and not reading, of sort of managing your information.
[00:32:06] I read that one yesterday. And you can't care about everything on staying sane when the world's a mess.
[00:32:14] Rowena: Seems particularly apt
[00:32:15] Shelley: Absolutely. And then seemingly opposing ideas like finish things on the magic of completion. And then later, what's an interruption anyway, on the importance of staying distractible. So Oliver Berkman styles, he really like throws it out there but I am loving contemplating on each of these chapters that as I read, because they're about four to five pages, nice and short, and I'm really actioning the book by reading it in that way.
[00:32:47] So, so much great stuff to contemplate and I will recommend it.
[00:32:52] Rowena: Fantastic. Well, you're the second person who, no, actually you're the third person in the last few weeks who has recommended that book. So I'm thinking it might be appearing on my summer TBR list for sure.
[00:33:03] Shelley: Well, Rowena, it's just one of a bunch of books that I've recently hauled in. Jolabokaflod Remember, that's the Icelandic tradition of a Christmas book flood it's come early in the Smith household. We ordered a bunch of books from the US recently. Um, we do get books here in South Africa, don't worry, but there's some books that I just need to get that we can't get here.
[00:33:27] And so then I'll do a big bulk order and it really is like Christmas when this box arrives. So that reminds me that our next episode is one of our favorites. That's our annual holiday special. So join us in two weeks time for that one. But until then, let's continue the conversation. You can connect with me on LinkedIn.
[00:33:47] I'm Shelley Tonkin Smith, and you can learn more about my copywriting services and resources for online service providers and educators at shelleysmithcreative. com. That's also where you can find all of my resources on copywriting, using AI tools effectively, and finding the right tech tools for your website and online home.
[00:34:08] And where can listeners find you, Ro?
[00:34:11] Rowena: Well, you can find me at Rowena Mabbott on Instagram and LinkedIn. You can also visit rowenamabbott. com for information about my coaching services, the novels I've published and. Newsflash, the latest, newest novel, No More Simon Says, will be published on December 3. So watch this space or perhaps check my social media because it will be available from the 3rd of December.
[00:34:33] That's the second novel in the Single in Sydney series. So I'm very excited about
[00:34:38] Shelley: that.
[00:34:39] is
[00:34:39] fantastic, Rowena. Congratulations! You've got a
[00:34:43] Rowena: Thank you.
[00:34:43] Shelley: that publication. Oh, well done.
[00:34:47] Rowena: Which should be, by the time this episode goes to air, should be only a week or so out until the publication date. Um, but on my website you'll also find a load of additional resources to support you in harnessing your strengths, to live with more clarity and confidence, and with greater happiness.
[00:35:04] I would say so, help you live without those regrets that we've just talked about. And of course, finally, please remember to visit twobookedup. com for all the show notes, which will include links to the books and episodes that we've talked about in this episode we've just done.
[00:35:19] Shelley: I'm Shelley Tonkin Smith, and I hope this conversation sparked something in you. Please subscribe, leave a review, and share this episode with someone who you think might need to hear it.
[00:35:35] Rowena: And I'm Rowena Mabbott, and as always, keep reading, reflecting and growing. Until next time.
