[00:00:00] Rowena: Hello, I'm Rowena Mabbott and you are listening to Two Booked Up episode 27. Today in our final episode talking about 4,000 weeks time management for Mortals by Oliver Birkman, we are going to be talking about the five life-changing questions he shares in his final summary. And how they can influence our personal choices.
As always, I'm joined by the lovely Shelley Tonkin Smith.
[00:00:31] Shelley: Hi, Rowena. Yes. Those five questions really tapped into how we can live with greater intention, And when last week we focus more on business. Today we focus in on our personal lives, and I know you've got lots of ideas and examples of how we can use those five questions to help guide our decision making in a more intentional way.
I'm really excited.
[00:00:58] Rowena: Oh, me too. And I sure do have lots of examples, so let's embrace that intentionality and dive in
[00:01:04] Shelley: This is the Two Booked Up Podcast, where we talk about books,
[00:01:13] Rowena: the books, that are challenging us to live more intentional lives
[00:01:16] Shelley: the books that are equipping us on our business and professional journeys.
[00:01:21] Rowena: and the books that delight and bring us joy.
[00:01:24] Shelley: So if you want to live life with more intention and you want to be doing work that brings you joy, Then come and join the bookish conversation with me, Shelley Tonkin Smith.
[00:01:35] Rowena: And me Rowena Mabbott here on two Booked up.
So the five questions that Oliver poses at the end of 4,000 weeks were actually one of my key takeaways from the book. They are big. They are tough, but I think using these questions in a deliberate considered way can support us to make better decisions about how we use our limited weeks and live with more intention in our personal lives, in our relationships, and in our careers too.
He shared that they were prompted by his insight, and I'm going to share his quote here, "the most fundamental question of time management. What would it mean to spend the only time you ever get in a way that truly feels as though you are making it count?" He then goes on to share the key five questions and provides some prompts to encourage us to think more deeply about the question and explore how the lives we are currently living and the decisions we have made and continue to make are supporting or not our desire to spend our time in a way that truly feels as though we are making it count.
[00:02:50] Shelley: And for sure that's what we all want, right? That we feel that we are spending our time in a way that counts, that we are doing what matters, to be intentional with our time and our life. And so Oliver then encourages us as readers to ask these questions of ourselves on a reasonably regular basis. So for example, maybe around the new Year or on your birthday or for me, that would be pretty close, uh, or times when you want to do some kind of check-in, maybe at the beginning of a season or something like that.
They can be equally insightful at times when we feel stagnant or we just feeling unstuck or uncertain or wanting to make some sort of change.
[00:03:33] Rowena: Exactly, Shelly, these. Questions really encourage us to think more deeply and to be more aware and intentional with our decisions and
[00:03:44] Comfort vs. Discomfort
[00:03:44] Shelley: Okay, so let's get started with the first question. So Oliver Berkman asks,
"where in your life or your work are you currently pursuing Comfort when what's called for is a little discomfort?"
And then he gives the prompts "ask, does this choice diminish me or enlarge me? And choose uncomfortable enlargement over comfortable, diminishment, wherever you can." So Rowena, can you give us some examples of what this might look like?
[00:04:21] Rowena: Absolutely. I've got a few different examples to help illustrate this idea. So, first of all, I'm gonna share a personal one. So, when I was a child, I used to be very hesitant to try new things or take risks because of the fear of failure, basically, according to my mother, unless I already knew I could do something, I wouldn't do it. However, as I got older, I realized that this fear was holding me back from experiencing new opportunities and growing as a person. So I started pushing myself out of my comfort zone. Travel was and is great for this. But equally so can trying new hobbies and embracing the beginner's mind, which Shelly, you talked about in episode 13 the episode about play. So can meeting new people and taking on new challenges. So although it can be uncomfortable at first, ultimately being stretched leads to personal growth and a more fulfilling life.
Now I've got a, perhaps another example here that is maybe a little bit more relatable. So think about your exercise or workout routine if you have one. Personally, I like to stick to the same yoga stretches because it is much easier for me to do early in the morning. And the point for me is the routine and not having to think too hard.
But if the point for you is to get fit and improve your health, staying where you feel comfortable might not be ideal. Instead to truly see progress and growth, you might be better to push yourself outside of your comfort zone and try some more challenging new exercises or heavier weight. So by choosing uncomfortable enlargement over comfortable diminishment, you may see a better outcome and better results. All right. so I am gonna touch on career a little bit. So in our career, pursuing comfort can look like staying in a job or role even when you feel unfulfilled. Mostly because it's familiar and the familiar is comfortable. Yet deep down, maybe you know, a more challenging role would be more fulfilling and bring a greater sense of purpose.
In these circumstances. Leaping into something that feels uncomfortable can be super daunting, but also exciting. And to be fair, it's also we're having some support from a professional, like a career coach. That's me, can actually be of use.
And finally, another example in our last one for this particular question is in our relationships.
So this tendency to stay with what is comfortable can mean we avoid difficult conversations with friends or family. For example, maybe you've avoided talking to your partner about a sensitive topic, but having that conversation could ultimately strengthen your relationship.
Um, yeah. Just saying, I've been there. The question does this choice diminish or enlarge me is like a circuit breaker. It can work to cut through the rationalizations we give to ourselves and nudge us to take the first step.
[00:07:15] Shelley: Yes, this is so true. And you know, as humans, I think we are programmed to seek out the comforts of the familiar over the discomforts of the new. And I've seen this with my boys and with myself as I've gone through this homeschooling journey is to. Go. Alright, let's stretch myself. OR my boys. Like facilitate stretching them out of their comfort zone into the stretch zone where you are not, going completely into this, panic zone, but you're into the stretch zone. And I think that's what's what Oliver Birkman is asking us to do, to really get the most out of our 4,000 weeks, is to where we given those choices, take the stretch.
Take the discomfort you'll do.
[00:08:01] Rowena: yes, exactly. That is exactly what he's saying, Shelly, that we need to stop deferring to the comfortable and actively make choices that enlarge us rather than diminish us. And this is that intentional piece to it.
[00:08:12] Impossible Standards of Productivity or Performance
[00:08:12] Shelley: Okay, cool. I love that one. Now the second question.
"Are you holding yourself to and judging yourself by standards of productivity or performance that are impossible to meet?"
And then he prompts, "let your impossible standards crash to the ground. Then pick a few meaningful tasks from the rubble and get started on them today."
So I think that this one gets to the heart of perfectionism and how many of us multi-passionate people can end up getting tangled and overwhelmed. We want to do everything and we want to do it perfectly. And we really touched on this in our last episode about becoming a better procrastinator. So go ahead and listen to that one if you want to dive deeper into this.
But. Ro, can you now share some practical examples of how these standards of productivity and performance can actually show up in our lives?
[00:09:13] Rowena: And look, it's such a common one, and I know, again, I'm gonna share a personal example. First up, I definitely fell into the trap of setting impossible standards for myself, particularly when it comes to work. And I think particularly when I was in my corporate days. So, you know, some years ago now, I used to think that I had to achieve everything on my to-do list in order to be productive.
And I would work really hard to try and do that. But as we have discussed, on this podcast over a number of books and episodes, I did eventually realize that this was unrealistic and counterproductive. Instead, I now focus on prioritizing the most important tasks and breaking them into smaller, manageable steps by focusing on what's truly meaningful.
I've been able to refocus and reprioritize by really focusing on what truly matters and the upside. I'm also more productive.
So I think the other example that comes to mind for this is one that you, Shelly, and you and I have talked about a few times, and this is where as parents, the impossible standards can really. Kind of suck the joy from parenting. We end up comparing ourselves to others and set very high standards for ourselves.
And I think it's really important here and valuable to realize the standards we often set for ourselves are not realistic. And this is especially so if we find ourselves comparing our lives. To other people's Instagram feeds, their perfect does not match up with our everyday. So they're capturing a single moment of, you know, possibly crafted perfection as in it's not really real.
And we are comparing it usually to our everyday mess or everyday
kind of, you
[00:10:53] Shelley: even the worst parts of our our day.
[00:10:55] Rowena: Yes, exactly. That's, that's often what we are comparing it to, right? And remembering that can be really hard, especially if we feel like we are struggling anyway. Then having that kind of visual cue in our face can be very disheartening.
And so instead of meeting all the expectations, the idea is we can focus on a few meaningful activities or tasks that align with our values and priorities. So as a wonderful friend said to me, the washing will still be there later, and reminded me to enjoy the moments with my toddler and newborn and not worry about the mountains of washing that were waiting to be folded.
And I think flowing on from that, so thinking more about my kids now that the age they are. So instead of trying to be the perfect parent and getting caught up with all the conflicting expectations and standards, a very practical thing to do is to think what are the specific ways I can show love and support to my kids?
So your children, listeners that are aligned with what they want and need, and just do those one to two things each day. So for one child, for me, it's being present when they come home from school to give them a hug so that they can chat to me.
That's that the really obvious way that they feel loved. For my older child, it's making sure there's always plenty of food in the house, so he always gets to eat. But also, I have to say, still being ready with a hug.
[00:12:17] Shelley: Uh, yeah, a hug generally it's always a safe best and I, I think these parenting ex. Expectations that we place on ourselves. And yeah, again, this is where homeschooling for me comes in. There's so many different ways of homeschooling and there's so many different standards and expectations that other people place on themselves, and that's cool.
But yeah, if we kind of look at social media, we just. Can feel so overburdened, and brings to mind one of those, favorite quotes, that you've shared with me over the years. Comparison is the thief of joy and
Yeah. In the case of social media.
[00:12:55] Rowena: so easy.
[00:12:56] Shelley: Yeah. Comparing those messy moments.
And it's almost in those messy moments that we then go, oh, lemme just check my Instagram to relax. And that's the worst thing to do. Cause that's when you see those people's highlight photos and it's. It's definitely a recipe for taking on impossible standards. So I think we really need to let those expectations be our, inspiration and for going, oh wow, that person is doing something amazing. Um, but I am also doing. Amazing stuff and you know, sometimes just getting through the day is an amazing thing to do. So I'm glad you shared those parenting examples particularly,
[00:13:36] Who you are vs. who you ought to be
[00:13:36] Shelley: Now onto our next question, a very challenging one that taps into the heart of our identity.
So this is the third question. It is,
"in what ways have you yet to accept the fact that you are who you are, not the person you think you ought to be?" So that one's a, a hard-hitting one, and he gives us some prompts. He says that
"no one really cares what we're doing with our life except us. Therefore, ask ourselves, how do we enjoy spending our time?
And then consider the possibility that the answer to that question is an indication of how you might use your time best."
So I love that prompt because it's such a challenging question and can bring up a lot, but it actually ends up being quite simple of going. What brings you joy? How do you enjoy spending your time as you ? So Ro, how are some of the ways that this shows up in
[00:14:37] Rowena: Mm. And it is such a challenging question, Shelley. Thanks for acknowledging that. So I've had clients who struggle with this at age 25, like at a quarter life crisis kind of point, and others have been in their late thirties or forties.
Again, often referred to as a midlife crisis. But the commonality is that each is struggling with the expectations that society, family, or ourselves that we've placed on ourselves. And as part of that, we can find ourselves feeling frustrated that we are not living up to who we think we ought to be, or that we've been pursuing a path, that doesn't actually make us feel like ourselves and in some instances not even really making us happy.
So again, I'm gonna share a personal example first. So this question came up for me. In my late thirties. And it took me until then to realize I had to do work aligned with my values.
It was no longer tenable for me to do purposeful work if it meant my values were compromised. And so since then, I've been much more accepting about who I am and that it's okay to have different goals and values than other people. So once I embraced my own unique path, I felt more empowered to pursue my passions and do things that made me happy.
And make decisions that align with my values. And of course, by accepting who I am, I'm able to make choices that align with my values and bring me joy in my career, but also in my life.
So, following on from that career idea, and this is where I actually, I'm gonna share some examples from working with my clients.
When we ask about how we enjoy spending our time, which is what Oliver Berkman suggests would be a good indicator for how we should spend our time. We actually can't do it. We struggle to articulate it. And I see this time and again with my coaching clients, one of the homework tasks I often give them is to list 30 things they love to do and pretty much everybody gets to five or six, and then that's it.
They can't come up with anymore. But when we explore what we truly love, we have greater insights to our passion and purpose. I'm gonna give you an example. You might have always felt pressure to pursue a certain career path, but you feel most fulfilled doing something else. So I actually know a few doctors both working in hospitals and as general practitioners who chose medicine because there was a significant expectation based on their academic results.
So they were super smart and their families put pressure saying You should be a doctor. Now. The two people I'm thinking of are amazing, compassionate doctors.
They're fantastic. Any patient would be lucky to have them, but when you ask them just kind of casually, what do you really love? They joke, each of them separate. They don't know each other. They each joke about how they love baking. One wants to maybe run a cafe, and the other one loves experimenting with recipes.
Now it's still kind of science-y based, but they joke each of them separately again, that in another life they would've loved to run a cafe. So I thought that was really interesting that they don't actually do, they're not doing the thing they love the most.
[00:17:38] Shelley: And like I would almost say as well, that maybe start small and bring in some hobbies into your life like so. Perhaps stick with your career if, if that feels a little bit more comfortable. Cause often that will be stretching yourself out of your comfort zone as it is to take on a hobby.
And so that's maybe a way of, of starting small as you, as you do this,
[00:17:58] Rowena: yeah, we always like starting small. Thank you for bringing it back to reality.
[00:18:02] Shelley: I think there's a lot to be said for those kinds of hobbies to bring in a little bit of who you are. And that might then, Set you on a path, where you actually are changing careers and that kind of thing.
[00:18:12] Rowena: Now I'm gonna give our listeners a little bit of homework for this one. So if you thought, Gosh, I'm not actually sure what I love to do or what I enjoy. Please know you're not alone and what I'd actually like you to do is, do what Shelly encourages play.
Do a little bit of playfulness, get creative, try stuff out. Reconnect with the things that you loved as a child, especially anything you loved between the ages of seven and 11. This period seems to be the golden age where actually if you can tap back into remembering what you'd love to do at that time, you can really connect with some greater purposes.
Or like I suggest with my clients, try writing a list of 30 things and push through. Push through past the five or six that most people get stuck at. You might well be surprised you also might find there are a whole lot of new ideas and activities you enjoy, which will help you reconnect with both who you are.
And if the worst case, it just gives you something fun to do next weekend as well.
[00:19:11] Shelley: I love that idea. It kind of reminds me of a Yes day. You know that movie Yes. Day? Have you watched that? Um, we joke with my boys and we've said to them, do you want a yes day? And initially they were like, yes, of course we want a yes day.
Um, until they, until we said, okay. But then we are also gonna get a yes day as as parents. And I started listing all the things that I would want on my yesterday, which would involve a lot of music, a lot of like doing drama skits and um, maybe memorizing some Shakespeare and all sorts of things like this.
And there were suddenly like, cancel Yes. Day. No, no. Don't ever want a yes day. But maybe they could be a good way for you to think about it. If you had a yes day, what are the things that you would choose to do?
[00:19:55] Holding back until you know what you're doing
[00:19:55] Shelley: But yeah, we'll move on to the next question as you contemplate that. Uh, the next question in 4,000 weeks is question four.
"In which areas of life are you still holding back until you feel like you know what you're doing?"
So the prompt here that he gives us are, "most people are winging it. So you never truly feel as though you know what you're doing in anything. Whatever you're doing, parenting, career, whatever it is, most people are winging it. So if total authority is never going to arrive, you may as well not wait any longer to give such activities everything you've got. Just go for it."
[00:20:40] Rowena: and This is a curly one, another one, and I think Shelly, whilst it's generalizing from speaking with my clients, women often have a harder time with this than men. I find that the bulk of my clients, they wanna feel 150% sure before they embark on a new venture activity or even a relationship. Whereas many of the men, and I have quite a lot of them in my life, they seem to channel Oliver Berkman's approach and kind of figure they can figure it out as and learn as they go. Or they can definitely wing it.
I see many women in my network and amongst my clients who feel they need to complete another qualification or learn more before they're experienced enough to pursue their dreams.
They're holding themselves back and sometimes learning. As much as we love learning, we are big fans of learning. It's actually a form of procrastination, which Shelly talked about in our last episode.
[00:21:32] Shelley: Oh, yes. And I'm going to jump in here and tell everyone that I've put together that blog post and a downloadable principle of the seven step process that I went through in the last episode of Two Booked Up. All about how you can procrastinate better. Because we've learned from 4,000 weeks that we don't need to resist procrastination as such, but we need to learn how to procrastinate better and probably more intentionally.
So you can find that post at Shelley Tonkin Smith dot com slash procrastination. I'll leave a link in the show notes. And Rowena, you mentioned winging it. I have to admit. Ours, winging it a bit with this post because I had to rush, but it's together after our last episode. Procrastinating myself, ironically.
But with this question at the end of 4,000 weeks, the book seems to imply that a bit of winging it is what's required.
[00:22:29] Rowena: Yes as Oliver Berkman points out most successful people are winging it to at least some degree .
Everybody is constantly learning and adapting as they go. So how do we get around this? We take action even if we don't feel completely prepared. So give your all to your goals because through that, you'll gain experience and confidence over time.
So when we consider this question and the prompts, it's like the blinkers are removed from our eyes and we realize that we can actually get on with it and give it a go. As one of my lovely friends says, she goes, have a crack. What she means is just give it a go without needing to spend any more of our limited time acquiring more knowledge, more skills or expertise.
So think of this as your permission slip from Oliver Berkman and from us. If there's something that you've been thinking, I've still gotta learn more, just have a go. See how it goes. You might actually find, you know, everything you need to know.
And so this is quite a personal example and you are listening to it.
This podcast is an example of winging it, at least for me. So Shelly, lovely Shelly had hosted multiple podcasts prior to Tu bta because she is a multi-passionate genius.
This is my
[00:23:41] Shelley: But, but I, I totally started by winging it and I, there is so many winging at moments still.
[00:23:47] Rowena: Yeah, and it's fine. It's fine, right? We could have held back, I could have held back and undertaken a few courses.
In fact, I did research quite a few, but. These questions helped me realize that everyone is winging it to some extent. And the only way to gain experience is to dive in and start trying. And by taking on the new challenge and learning more about podcasting as I go, I've been able to build skills and confidence that I would never have gained if I'd waited for total authority, I'd still be faffing about probably, and just doing yet another course.
Luckily for me, I had Shelly to help me out as well, so that was very nice.
And then there's one more example here, which is parenting. You know, I couldn't go past this without mentioning it because none of us ever really know what we are doing. Um, even when you have got multiple children, what worked for one child may not work for another.
And even if you've got one child, what worked yesterday might not work today. So remembering we are all wing. It really does help. As does I have to say, talking to and asking other people. So in this instance, for other parents for advice and also seeking extra resources as needed. So rather than thinking, oh, I'm never gonna be an authority, talk to other people, you'll find out that they don't know what they're doing either.
But they might say, well, this worked for me when my child did that, and then you can give it a go.
[00:25:04] Shelley: Yes, I think so too. And often just expressing yourself and actually verbalizing what is going on in your head, naming what's going on in your head actually helps in and of itself. And yeah, I'd add that connecting with someone who has a little more experience can make a huge difference here too.
So like, Well, my podcasting experience helped you. The fact that your boys are a little older than mine and so you're going ahead in your parenting journey and it's great to ask you about some of these boy mom questions.
We're each wearing it, but we've got the support along the journey and I think that is so helpful to embrace and to work together to find these insights.
[00:25:50] Reaching Fruition
[00:25:50] Shelley: Okay, so the final question is such a great one, and it is,
"how would you spend your days differently if you didn't care so much about seeing your actions reach fruition?"
Hmm. So the prompts for this one are "what actions, what act of generosity or care for the world, what ambitious schemes or investments in the distant future. Might be meaningful to undertake today if you could come to terms with never seeing the results. Effectively, we are all stone masons working on a medieval cathedral.
We will never see the outcome, but the cathedral is still worth building."
Ah, this is such a powerful one. Ro. I love this one because I think we have this. Instant gratification need, and we want to see our efforts and actions come to fruition. But we've only got 4,000 weeks and we don't even have that necessarily. So yeah. Talk to us more about this one and how this can play out in life.
[00:26:56] Rowena: Mm. I agree with you, and this question really taps into the ideas around our legacy. But it also touches on our ego, and that is that feeling of self importance. And it's a challenging question, yet another one. Most of these questions are quite challenging. That's maybe part of the theme. So on the surface we can assume we're fine, but then we dive deeper.
And this question can really test our sense of self and what we value, cuz the questions also speaks to the idea of finding meaning in the journey rather than the destination.
So for me, again, a personal example to start this question helps remind me to focus on the present moment and enjoy the process of pursuing my goals rather than only concentrating on the end result, which definitely helps me to stay motivated, even when progress feels slow or uncertain.
So that's kind of what it helps me at a very surface level.
Then the other thing is around legacies and giving back, cuz he does mention that idea about what's your legacy gonna be, and that's a very key word. Because focusing on tangible results can actually prevent us taking actions that might actually bring greater meaning, fulfillment, and happiness.
So an example would be volunteering acts of kindness or generosity and good examples of actions we take without the expectation of immediate results. So, donating to a charity that is aligned with your values is an example. Giving back to your community. Every small action will go on and contribute to the greater good.
You may not ever see the outcome, but you don't do it for the outcome. You do it because you believe in that cause.
Scientific research also shows that those who regularly give back that is those who take action for the distant future, or that take action that doesn't actually directly benefit themselves, have a greater sense of meaning and happiness.
And I'm gonna mention this one here because this is really important.
Climate action. The action we take today will help ensure a future for the people who are not born yet. So the decisions and choices we make now will impact the future, but we may never see the results yet. This is a powerful example of we're using these questions and specifically this final fifth question can support us to make more intentional decisions and change our behavior, which will improve the world for the future.
[00:29:20] Shelley: Yeah, the climate action piece is so important and it's something also that I wanna teach my boys and model to my boys. And, that we get in art into nature where observing nature and being immersed in nature and really building a love for nature inside of their hearts.
And, It's not gonna have immediate benefits to me, and there might not be any tangible results that I can even see in doing that. But it is for those who are not even born yet. And I think this book has been wonderful in setting that perspective and like actually going, what we are doing here is having major impacts for other people's 4,000 weeks.
So there you have it everyone. Those are the five life-changing questions that support you to answer this overall question, and I'm gonna quote from the book here,
"The most fundamental question of time management. What would it mean to spend the only time you ever get in a way that truly feels as though you are making it count?" Can answer that big question by answering these five. Smaller, but huge questions. So our resident career and life confidence Coach Rowena, has shared lots of great examples to help you think about how you can apply and relate these questions to your own life and live with more intention. And I think what you've done a great job of doing here, Ro, is to just, uh, make these seemingly huge, big, heavy questions feel light and actionable.
So thank you. That's wonderful.
[00:30:59] Rowena: Ah, thanks Shelly. And let's continue with that theme of intentionality because. In our next episode, we'll be providing an update regarding how we're each going with our 2023 reading challenge. Now we are planning to share the books we've been reading and what categories they fall under, and I'm sure there'll be some new books between us to be added to the Tobe read list after that episode because we don't seem to manage to have conversations about books without each of us noting down the other person's recommendations.
So you can play along too by downloading our free and super cute 2023 reading challenge checklist. Just visit signup.twoboooked up.com. That's signup.twoboookedup.com. And yes, the link is in the show notes.
[00:31:47] Shelley: I can't wait for that episode. It'll be fun to reflect on some of the books that we've been reading these four months of 2023. I'm sure you have read about. 10 times more than I have Rose, I'll, I'll be added to , that list. But I've got some good recommendations for you too. And um, might actually sneak in a few fiction recommendations.
I know two books up listeners love some fiction, um, and I've been reading a big fiction one, so I've gotta make that count, okay.
[00:32:17] Rowena: Of course, but we do know that it's not on our checklist .
[00:32:20] Shelley: So those will be bonus.
[00:32:21] Rowena: That's bonus. Bonus
[00:32:23] Shelley: In the meantime, make sure to visit two book top.com where you can find show notes and a transcript of this episode. That's also where you can sign up for that reading challenge and our email newsletter.
And let's continue the conversation. Let us know if you think these five questions are helpful for living with greater intention by commenting on our social posts on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Twitter.
You can find me on Twitter at shelly t Smith or sign up for my newsletter at Shelley Tonkin Smith dot com.
That's where you can also find the blog post and principle on how to procrastinate better.
And if you'd like to learn more about my copywriting services, head on over to shelly Smith creative.com. And where can our listeners find you? Ro?
[00:33:11] Rowena: Oh, you can find me at Rowena Mabbott on Instagram, and if you'd like to learn more about how I can support you as a career and life confidence coach, or you wanna download my free book, the ADA Z of Career and Life Confidence, or read some of my many blog posts, then head on over to my online home at Rowena Mabbott dot com.
Thanks for listening to two Booked up today. Shelly and I will be back with another new episode in a couple of weeks time, and we look forward to connecting with you then.
[00:33:37] Shelley: You've been listening to Two Booked Up with me, Shelley Tonkin Smith.
[00:33:50] Rowena: And me Rowena Mabbott, please subscribe or follow Two Booked up in your podcast player and if you've enjoyed this episode, we'd love it if you leave a positive review. Thanks.