Episode Transcript
Two Booked Up Episode 38
[00:00:00] Shelley: Hello and welcome to 2024 and season three of Two Booked Up. I'm Shelley Tonkin Smith and Rowena Mabbott and I are back with a new season in what is the new year here at Two Booked Up. Happy February everyone!
[00:00:20] Rowena: Yes! Hi Shelley! Around here at Two Booked Up, February is the new January. That's how we started 2023 and it was one of our most popular episodes. So, we're starting 2024 in the same way. So, if you ever needed permission for a restart of the year, you've got it.
[00:00:41] Shelley: Yes, January 1st doesn't get exclusivity on Fresh Starts. I mean, come on. I'm actually reading Daniel Pink's book, When, and he says that the start of every month is a good time for a fresh start. But of course, you know, every day is a new opportunity for a fresh start if you approach it with intention. So what better way to bring some intention to your year than with a well chosen guiding word of the year?
[00:01:10] Rowena: Absolutely, Shelley, and that's what we're going to be focusing on today. Our guiding words or phrases of the year and what these words mean for this podcast and our reading lives, as well as our lives in general. And Shelley, we've heard from so many listeners that they love this guiding word approach.
And as a coach, I've seen how it can be very helpful for my clients. I'm still a fan of specific goal setting, but a guiding word can help bring an energy and an overall posture to the way you approach your goals.
[00:01:41] Shelley: Yes, I really like the room for creative interpretation that a guiding word brings. So if you'd like some inspiration for choosing your guiding word for 2024, then stay tuned.
This is the Two Booked Up Podcast, where we talk about books,
[00:02:05] Rowena: the books that are challenging us to live more intentional lives.
[00:02:08] Shelley: the books that are equipping us on our business and professional journeys.
[00:02:13] Rowena: And the books that delight and bring us joy.
[00:02:16] Shelley: So if you want to live life with more intention, and if you want to be doing work that brings you joy. Then come and join the bookish conversation with me,
Shelley Tonkin Smith.
[00:02:26] Rowena: And me, Rowena Mabbott, here on Two Booked Up.
[00:02:35] Shelley: So Rowena, it is so good to be recording with you again, because it is now officially, as I said in the intro, Season 3 of the Two Booked Up Podcast.
[00:02:45] Rowena: Hi, Shelley. Yes, it is great to be back . And we are starting with an incredibly fun listener favourite, setting a guiding word or phrase. But before we dive into that, I want to check in with you. How did you go with your holiday reading?
I recall that you had 11 books on your To Be Read holiday reading list.
[00:03:07] Shelley: Oh my goodness, Ro, you kept count! Okay, yeah, so 11 books. Hmm. So that was in episode 37. That was our Christmas special, our holiday special, and we talked about the books we wanted to read over the summer. For me, specific 11 books was always going to be a bit ambitious, I knew that.
But I did say in that episode that I would choose books based on how I wanted to feel in the holidays. So I had those 11 to keep my choices open. So that was actually really refreshing. I didn't have to think about that. There was like available books for me to choose based on how I wanted to feel.
So I'm pleased to share that I read some fiction, which is wonderful, because I mentioned to you that I was a little bit slack on my fiction reading, and So, first of all, I finally finished my very slow re read of The Lincoln Highway by Amor Towels and then, Rowena, I read the book that I didn't think I'd be able to track down.
It wasn't actually in my official 11, so this was the 12th book, but I had mentioned them on the podcast that I wanted to find The People on Platform 5 by Claire Pooley, one of your recommendations. And you described the book on the podcast, it's about a diverse group of people who actually break this rule of talking to each other on the London commuter trains, as those of us who've lived in London or been in London know, you're not allowed to talk to random commuters on the train.
So what is so cool is that I did live in London myself for two years, and I used to travel that exact same train line. I lived in Raynes Park and I worked in Surbiton, and I did my shopping in Wimbledon. So I had a very good sense of place in reading The People on Platform five. And you know, I wanted to feel relaxed. I wanted to feel, just a bit escapist and that book ticked the boxes for me. I didn't get to my goal of reading one of the classics yet, but, um, I know you're going to hold me to that, Ro, so I'm not even worried about that. Anne of Green Gables is still on my TBR and I'll get to my classics when I'm in a classics mood.
And then, for non fiction, I devoured Donald Miller's book, How to Grow Your Small Business. Now, Donald Miller's other book, Building a Story Brand, is one of my go to books when I'm doing copyrighting and ghostwriting for clients. And he's got a very, very clear step by step kind of way. So if you need someone to just tell you what to do, this is a really great book for that.
Step by step how to, uh, it made it very easy to read. So I'd really recommend that to anyone who's got a small business and wants to grow the business and do what he calls "professionalize" your operations. But I think the headline for my holiday reading, Ro, as to report back was that I gave in and read fiction just for fun and it was wonderful.
[00:06:05] Rowena: How fabulous. And I also love that you enjoyed The People on Platform 5 by Claire Pooley. And I specifically love that you read fiction just for fun. I am completely here for that. I think keeping our reading fun is vital to our enjoyment of it. Reading should be fun, and reading fiction is an ideal way to bring the fun back to your reading life.
And we know you listeners love our forays into sharing our fiction reads nearly as much as you love our discussion about the non fiction books. So there will be a future episode or two this season about fiction books.
[00:06:40] Shelley: Oh, yes. I'm very excited about that. Especially because, let's not forget that you self published your own fiction novel over the holidays, Rowena. Uh, so listeners, if you haven't got your own copy of Rowena's novel, Avoiding the Friend Zone, then we'll leave a link to it in the show notes if you want to go and check it out.
You can get it from all the major online booksellers in ebook, or in print edition, and it looks gorgeous in print edition. So you can get that through Amazon. I'm so proud of you, Ro, and I think it's just a wonderful fiction read. But now, Ro, there is that saying that good writers have to be avid readers, and you certainly are an avid reader in amongst all your writing as well.
So how did your summer reading go now that you've published your book and I hope you've got to put your feet up and enjoy some other people's writing.
[00:07:35] Rowena: I completely did. I actually gave myself about six weeks off from doing anything much to do with writing and just devoured a lot of books instead. So I read a lot of books. Not all of them were planned. Like you, I had some surprise editions. Um, and by that I do mean that they weren't specifically on my TBR list.
But um, from the books that I shared in our holiday episode, I had five nonfiction books and I read three of them and I had three fiction books and I read two of those. But I've also read some other fabulous fiction books, um, and I'm just going to share a little bit because there were three that I just would love to mention the first one is Remarkably Bright Creatures by Shelley Van Pelth. Great name, right, Shel? Um, yeah, and it has an intriguing premise, um, because one of the main characters is a giant Pacific octopus, but the giant Pacific octopus is in captivity. So it's challenging for some bits, but it's also it's a pleasurable read because it's really kind of quirky to have an octopus as a main character.
It also did bring up a lot of feelings about these intelligent animals being kept in captivity and pretty much now I'm just not going to eat octopus anymore. So that's, you know, where you have a change in behavior after reading some fiction. That's that one.
[00:08:51] Shelley: yes. And, and My Octopus Teacher, the, documentary that was filmed here in South Africa, South Africa. Yeah.
[00:08:57] Rowena: We'd watched that as well and then for something completely different, a lot of fun, was a book I finished recently called The Emma Project by Sonali Dev. So we mentioned Jane Austen in our holiday special, and so when I saw this title, I just couldn't resist it.
It is a contemporary Bollywood style take on Jane Austen's Emma. It is great fun, it's very well written, and there's plenty of romance, like a lot of romance, but um, it was great fun. I couldn't put it down, I just loved it. And then lastly, my most recent read is one from one of my friends. The author is Ian Trevena and it's his second book.
He is a Sydney based self published author and his book is called The Kilimea Stone. Now the Kilimea Stone refers to a very rare tanzanite from Tanzania and he's written a page turner of a detective kind of crime novel. And it was excellent. The pacing was phenomenal.
If you love a detective story or a crime story or if you just like great stories, this is the This, I can't recommend it highly enough, and it is self published, it's available on Amazon. And it wasn't my usual style, because I don't usually read that kind of crime novel, I prefer the cosy crime, but I really was surprised about how much I truly loved it.
So, yeah, I recommend that one if you want to check out a self published author as
[00:10:18] Shelley: Wonderful. That is so cool, Ro. What a nice mix of, of fiction novels that you've got. And so cool that you read a fellow self published author's book as well.
And now that we've had our little bit of book banter, let's talk, shall we, about our guiding words or our words of the year I'll maybe just start with a bit of an idea of what is a guiding word.
It's really just a word or a phrase to guide your decision making. And if you're wondering, why should you do this? I find that it gives me a very nice, loose focus. It gives that creative spin on goals. So it allows you to interpret, some of the activities and the decisions that you're making.
And it's just a little bit more fluid and, and a lot more fun for me. And then a word of the year or a phrase of the year. Rowena always likes choosing a phrase. It can also just help you to bring more awareness to your intentions and to your actions so that you're not like just defaulting. To things that come up, that you can rather put them through this filter of the word and bring that awareness to your actions and go, "Does this align with my guiding word, with my intention for the year?"
So it's, it's really great for Gretchen Rubin style rebels like me, but I think it's also quite, quite fun for you upholders too, Rowena.
[00:11:44] Rowena: Yes, it is. It's great for upholders. If you're not sure what we're talking about, um, with upholders and rebels and referencing Gretchen Rubin, listen back to episodes one to four of the Two Booked Up Podcast for our discussion on The Four Tendencies by Gretchen Rubin.
So, following on from what Shelley's been saying about why a Word of the Year, when I'm working with my coaching clients, goals are great, right? But some people don't like the formality of goals or feel it's too corporate. So for example, they might have had too many times they've been told they have to have a SMART goal -Specific, Measurable, Achievable or Actionable, Relevant and Time bound. Now those goals can be great. But they can also feel narrow or too restrictive for certain people. So instead, Shelley and I, particularly on this podcast, love the idea of intention setting.
Because unlike goals, which by design are more specific, intentions are much more of a guiding approach, which is what Shelley mentioned, but I also love them because they can be used for any period.
So you can. Do them, use them for something as short as a phone call or a meeting, or you can use them for a day, a week, a month, a quarter, a whole season, or a whole year. So Shelley, what is your word of the year?
[00:13:05] Shelley: So my word, my guiding word for 2024, I have decided on traction, the word traction. And I will tell you that this was a late game change. I was going to go with the word Amplify. But I think that could be next year's word. I'm wanting a word that feels a little less, um, I don't know, social media influencer.
I had some ideas for Amplify. We have a new music studio at our house and I wanted to embrace that, but I've worked that into Traction as well. So let me explain why I came up with and decided on Traction. The idea came to me when I was listening to an interview on a podcast that I don't often listen to, but I randomly tuned into it. And I thought, Hmm, this must be something speaking to me here. It was an interview with Nir Eyal on his book called Indistractable. And this is a book that has been, you know, we've seen it come up for us both, Rowena. And In that book, he poses the question, what is the opposite of distraction? Cause he's talking about being indistractable.
And so for most of us, we would say, okay, the opposite of distraction is focus. But in fact, if you look at the makeup of the word, the opposite of. Dis traction, take out the dis and you get traction. And so the idea being that having traction means that you are getting towards a goal and when you're distracted, you're going off the track and off the path and getting You procrastinating and get in waylaid and all the other things.
Whereas if you have traction, there's an energy and just like the wheels of a car or a bicycle means that it grips the ground properly and then it can move.
That's what I'm aiming for here this year is, is that. Yeah, maybe I need to get a grip, but I think having traction in my life and having traction with a product in a marketplace is also the thinking that I was having here is it's those initial foundation that you need The traction with the product in the marketplace.
And that means that people are noticing it, they're talking about it and they're buying it eventually. But it all starts with that traction. So I was like, okay, this works for me. This brings this focus because also when you have traction, you need to be going towards a goal. And really for me, in the place I'm at in my life here, And why the late game change is that last year I was pretty much working full time for one client and it was a very interesting assignment.
I really leveled up, particularly as a ghostwriter, but now that that contract is up, I've had some time to think about the next evolution of my business and I've, I've. I've kind of been called to slow down a little bit. And one of the things I realized is that I really miss helping small business owners, so with their copywriting and their marketing, like that's something I've done for a while, but also how do they take their skills and package all of that up into an offer that will be valuable to the customer?
And so this is the essence of product development. And I've realized that I've actually been talking about this and helping people with Product Development for years. So I want to now embrace this new, slightly new, but not new focus in my business. And for that, I need traction. The concept needs traction. I need focus for that. I need to bring that traction to my way of doing things. So I've got exciting plans for the year. for offers of my own, and each of those needs to gain traction. So there's a sense of strategic building and preparing to get where I want
to go this year.
[00:17:04] Rowena: Shelley, I love this. And I think I feel the excitement. But I also love that you were influenced by the interview, and about the book called Indistractable.
I read that book in 2021 and I have to say it's a very good book. So if our listeners are looking for something that does deal with that, I would recommend that one for sure. But I also love that you, and this is really I think a key takeaway for me, but also for our listeners potentially, is that you've adjusted your word based on your experience with last year's word.
So you're actually refining your process as you've been moving through it, which I think is key because as adults, we all want to continue to learn, right? Lifelong learning is the way we want to be. And I love that you have considered your experiences, the related activity that occurred in your career as a result of your word choice last year.
[00:17:55] Shelley: Yeah. Which I'm going to just add was momentum. Um, so that one was like momentum and I was like, Whoa, this is, it was great. Last year was a big year of momentum, but I kind of feel I want to just slow down and take some more traction, kind
of
[00:18:09] Rowena: Yeah, well because I think, and I think I remember you talking about the momentum like a rock rolling down a hill, right? Which is terrific, but a rock rolling down a hill doesn't have traction. So now you need to put the brakes on a little bit and get, get the traction down. So it's, we're getting a lot of movement metaphors in
[00:18:25] Shelley: We are, aren't
we?
[00:18:27] Rowena: Yeah, lovely. Um, but it's also that you've been exposed to new ideas, And I think traction is a very powerful word, I am excited to see how that's going to play out for you this year.
[00:18:38] Shelley: so I think within myself, I'm looking for the sense of groundedness and you feel the ground and you feel like not floating up in the air and overwhelmed, you know, the opposite of that. It's like, this groundedness and a certain sense of slowness, as I mentioned, about getting traction when you're in a tight spot.
It's kind of like, if you just put pedal to the metal, then you're going to spin your wheels Row, on the weekend, we went cycling. And there was like a little rise and I had to cycle across a dam. And it was a tiny little bridge that didn't have sides to it. And it was, I don't know, it was A meter in width.
So it was, it was an interesting one because I was, I was getting traction, but all I could not do is, is actually stop. I had to just keep going and trust that I like had this, this traction. So that's why I'm also quite excited about the word traction is because we're going mountain biking more this year.
And yes, I was, I was just picturing myself falling into this dam, but I was like, Shelley, do not picture the water, picture the road ahead of you and just keep steering those two meters ahead of you. And something intuitively told me to do that. And, and then I did go and read about it afterwards that, that is exactly the right thing to do.
And I think that's what I want this year to be about is focusing on that road ahead of me and not getting distracted because then I'm going to fall into the water. So getting traction on the path that there is there ahead of me. So, yeah. And I think, we talked about goals.
This word traction, you need to have traction towards a goal. So I've slipped the goals in there, even though I'm like a little bit anti goals, because I'm going towards something. And then, you know, last year with Momentum, I split the word up into moments and to mom and traction, you can take out the T and you get action or the T and R.
So taking action, but remembering that it's those consistent actions is what I need to get the traction that I'm aiming for.
And then I would say the last thing that I want to mention about this word traction that I love, I see myself as a trailblazer and I like that idea of forging a path for other people, and being like this early adopter, it's part of my identity.
So in some cases, I'm going to be going off the beaten track, trying new things, and hopefully, like, forging a path that others can follow, in terms of their product development, being an online entrepreneur and that sort of thing. So I'm very excited, as you can hear by this word traction but yeah, enough about my word, Rowena, I am very excited to hear what your word, or I'm sure it's going to be a phrase, is of 2024.
[00:21:15] Rowena: Well, surprise, or maybe no surprise, it is another phrase. So I have done a phrase for the last few years and 2024 will be no different. This year's phrase does sound a little bit like it's woo woo, but I only realised that after I'd already chosen it.
So the phrase is love and light. So it's a little bit of a connection where I used to have, I had simple and light. for a year or so. And then last year I had Curate and Cultivate, because I love alliteration and I can't really go past alliteration. So this phrase, why did I choose Love and Light?
Because in my strengths, which I work with in my clients, I do a strengths profile. And my number one strength is love. And it has been for about 20 something years. No matter how many times I do the survey, in what different moods or anything else, my number one strength, by a long way, is always love. Um, and so, I felt like maybe I should honour that.
It also reflects the sort of work that I want to do, where I bring more of all of myself. So we talked about this on previous podcast episodes, the idea of being paid to be you. So where I bring all of me into all of my work. So that ties in with the love part as well, given that's my number one strength.
I also read a beautiful quote somewhere, and I just adore this, it's on my notice board above my desk so I see it every day, and it says, listen to your heart, do more of what you love, and let go of the rest. So, I actually toyed with that quite a bit, and I played around with several options, but as I mentioned, once I found alliteration, it was a no brainer. Right.
So the, the love word means to do all things with love to do what I love. To spend time with the people I love, to share love via my work and my books, because within the strength of love is to be able to show and receive love.
And it's not, uh, physical, you know, hugging and kissing, although that can be part of it. It's more about showing kindness, giving respect, being generous, all of those beautiful qualities that are just really valuable to me. And so it's doing all of those things.
And of course my books, because my novel is a love story, and I've got more books in the pipeline, and love will always be the theme. So my novels can be love stories, but they can also, there's also a story that I'm working on where the person learns to love themselves again, or learns to love their life again.
And I also want to support my clients to love their careers and their lives. So love really was a bit of a no brainer there. It was a pretty done deal on that.
And then light. Is, the bit of fun. So light, for me, references feeling fun, something that's very positive, um, a sense of ease, so it's not heavy.
I can get a bit overdone with the love stuff. And so the light brings the fun, and the lightness and the enjoyment, the fun, the playfulness, I guess would be another way of putting it.
[00:24:15] Shelley: That is so cool, Ro. I like how you've brought back light from simple and light. I don't think that wasn't lost on me. I remember simple and light being very powerful for you, I think for two years, I think you had that phrase for two years. Because it was such a good one.
And you know what? I think you need to be reminded to embrace that lightness you, you give so much of yourself. And that's, I like the balance of love and light because I think in your coaching and in everything you do here on this podcast, you do it with so much love and you pour so much of yourself into it.
And I think to balance it off with that Feeling of lightness, feeling of fun and playfulness, I think is, it's a very powerful combo. I think love on, on its own, it's super, super powerful. And then I think you've maybe just like lazy genius ed it by adding the balance of the lightness to, to all of it.
So yeah, I love that balance. I think that's going to be a really exciting word and really playing to your strengths as well.
That's, just a tip for people, that perhaps they want to go and have a look at the VIA strengths survey and go and see what are your core strengths. If you're battling to find a word of the year, those can give you some clues as to where are your strengths and perhaps put some more focus and emphasis on those strengths as you go forward into the year.
[00:25:38] Rowena: Yes, yeah. I would heartily endorse the taking the strengths survey. It's free, but then if you do want to have a more in depth, personalised discussion, then, one of my coaching offers, the Clarity Kickstart, will actually do a strengths assessment with you and we can go really deep into that.
[00:25:54] Shelley: It's so cool. done one of those with me and it's so cool because there's this aspect of overplaying and underplaying your strengths that Rowena can help you with. It can unlock so many powerful shifts in your life and in your business.
So yeah, Ro, I mentioned also how it's These words are now going to influence Two Booked Up. So tell me how do you see love and light influencing the way we present the Two Booked Up podcast?
[00:26:22] Rowena: So I think the word love is fairly self evident because I love to read and I love to share and discuss ideas and I like to try new things. And so I also like to do things from a place of love. So we're going to ensure, or my aim with Love and Light with our podcast is to ensure that we share books that help you, our listeners, to feel good, to learn and to be supported.
And the light is keeping it fun. We're going to focus on a light touch to our podcasts so that they remain, cause I think they already are, but they remain and maybe become even more entertaining and informative. And what about you, Shelley?
[00:26:59] Shelley: Yeah. So traction to me is, as I mentioned is getting towards a goal. And my number one goal with this podcast is to have fun with it and to share the joy of the books that we're reading with you lovely listeners. Like anyone who has a conversation with me knows that I'll be like, Oh, have you read this book?
Oh, have you read that book? And I love just finding out new facts, uh, talking about strengths. My top strength is curiosity. So I just want to have fun. Talking about the cool new things I discover in the books that I read. So that's my number one goal for this podcast. And number two, I think I'm going to add in like a little bit of a bonus element to traction for this podcast.
I'd love to see this podcast gain more traction in the form of bringing more regular listeners into our bookish community. So that's just a note if you enjoy the show, please, would you spread the word with your friends and your followers? Uh, you could probably just share a link from wherever you're listening to now, if you're on your phone or whatever, just copy the link, there's share buttons, whatever.
Or you can just drop a friend to, drop a friend, don't drop your friend, you can drop a text to your friend, um, and just say, I'm really enjoying Two Booked Up by Shelley and Rowena. You can go and search Two Booked Up on your podcast player. If they go and search Two Booked Up on their podcast player, and maybe add Shelley or Rowena to it, you'll definitely find it like that.
So it's as simple as that. And for me, I'm looking for traction, which I know we can and build this community.
[00:28:34] Rowena: Absolutely. And I would agree if you can share, the podcast with your people, that would be fabulous.
[00:28:40] Shelley: Before we wrap up today, we have a new tradition to uphold. It's time. For the Choose Your Own Adventure Segment!
[00:28:49] Rowena: Oh yes, we did this in our last episode and we're bringing it back as a regular segment at the end of each show.
[00:28:58] Shelley: Yeah, so this is where you get to choose your next steps based on something that we've covered in the episode. So just like those Choose Your Own Adventure middle school books where you get to choose the next plot point and turn to the page, that's what we're going to do now.
[00:29:12] Rowena: Okay, so Shelley, what one thing from today's episode would you encourage listeners to consider as they choose their own adventure?
[00:29:20] Shelley: Okay, it's easy. It's to say, choose a word or phrase for 2024. I'd encourage you to take a bit of time with it. You can hear how much time I took thinking about it. So, journal on how you want to feel about the year. See which words pop up to you. Um, consider the word from a few different angles and interpretations.
You can go and look it up in the dictionary. Uh, chat about it with a buddy. Cause I chatted about this word with Ro and, I was going to choose the word calm. And she was like, um, Shelley, like, I think you need to rethink that. And we talked through like what was coming up for me about calm. And then I came up with traction.
So remember there are no wrong answers here. You can always change your word, but enjoy the process of thinking about what word do you want to guide this year? And Ro, what is your choose your own adventure?
[00:30:09] Rowena: So, I'm going to say, if you're not a fan of goals, the Choose Your Own Adventure task is to try intention setting instead. So one common concern about setting goals is that they may seem focused solely on external achievements or destinations, let's say. However, intentions are different in that they involve your relationships with yourself and others, and are meant to be lived out each day, regardless of whether or not the goal or destination is ultimately achieved, which makes them way more fun and, to my mind, far more doable.
All right, in our next episode, we're going to be launching the 24 for 2024 reading challenge. So tune in to hear the categories we've chosen and how the challenge will help you to bring some intention and more importantly, playfulness and fun into your reading life.
[00:30:56] Shelley: Yay, I can't wait for that. You can connect with me on LinkedIn, I'm Shelley Tonkin Smith, and if you'd like to learn more about my copywriting and ghostwriting services, head on over to shelleysmithcreative.com.
I'm also excited to be leading a read along at the beginning of March on the book Profit First by Mike Michalowicz. This is part of a collaboration that I'm doing with Anne Gray of the Leaders Library. We are taking eight weeks to read through the book in a small group and then apply it to our businesses.
I'll be sharing my experiences with Profit First and how it actually works for me in practice. So, really great for small business owners and freelancers who are looking to implement this, honestly, life changing cash flow management method in their businesses.
I will leave a link to that in the show notes. The first session is free, and then you can decide whether you want to carry on, and then you join up for the cohorts. And Ro, where can listeners find you?
[00:31:54] Rowena: You can find me at Rowena Mabbott on Instagram, or if you'd like to learn more about my new book, Avoiding the Friend Zone, or download either of my two earlier books for free, Or learn how I can support you as a coach. You can find all of that at RowenaMabbott. com.
[00:32:10] Shelley: And of course, remember to visit twobookedup. com. That's where you can find the show notes and a transcript of this episode. And of course, links to the books that we've mentioned today. And until next time keep on reading!
[00:32:24] Rowena: You've been listening to Two Booked Up with me, Rowena Mabbott.
[00:32:35] Shelley: Shelley Tonkin Smith. Please subscribe or follow Two Booked Up in your podcast player. And if you've enjoyed this episode, we'd love it if you'd leave us a positive review.
