Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Start with Why (without the overwhelm!)
[00:00:00] Rowena: Hello, Two Booked Up friends.
[00:00:11] Have you read Start With Why by Simon Sinek? I'm Rowena Mabbott, and I'll admit that this is one of those classic business books that I haven't actually read. But that's okay, because my bookish, biz bestie, Shelley Tonkin Smith has read it. And today, I've got a bunch of questions lined up for her, about Start with Why.
[00:00:32] So, hello, Shelley!
[00:00:34] Shelley: Hi Rowena. Yes, it's your turn to ask the questions and my turn to be in the hot seat today. We enjoyed this approach so much in episode 45 that we're bringing it back. And my mission today is to fast forward our listeners to the best parts of Start With Why. Something we always endeavor to do here on Two Booked Up.
[00:00:56] Rowena: And something else we do on this podcast is to extend the conversation. So I'm looking forward to chatting more broadly about this idea of starting with why and how it could bring more joy to the lives of our Two Booked Up listeners.
[00:01:09] Shelley: Yes, I'm so glad you mentioned that, Ro, because while this is a pivotal book, it's also just a little bit dated and a bit limited in its examples. So I'm actually excited to take some of the big ideas in the book and talk about how our listeners could apply them in their own businesses or in their careers or in their personal lives.
[00:01:32] So let's start with why.
[00:01:35] Welcome to Two Booked Up. I'm Shelley Tonkin Smith.
[00:01:44] Rowena: And I'm Rowena Mabbott. We're two well read best friends.
[00:01:48] Shelley: And now you are an honorary member of our book club. We're going to fast forward you to the mind blown and mic drop parts of those business and personal development books that are probably on your must read list.
[00:02:02] Rowena: Because as busy, multi passionate working parents, we know how hard it is to find time to read. But we also know how much you love learning, growing and making a difference in the world.
[00:02:13] Shelley: So treat yourself to some bookish conversation, whether you've read the book or not. Yes.
[00:02:19] Rowena: With your two friends on Two Booked Up.
[00:02:22] Okay, so today we're talking about Start With Why by Simon Sinek. And since its first publication way back in 2009, it has become something of a classic business book. It all began with Simon Sinek's highly successful TED Talk. And I think the idea of finding a why and starting with why have resonated very profoundly, not just with big corporate leaders, but also with perhaps even more broadly with more regular people. You know, those of us just trying to find our purpose in our life and our work. And I have to say, my very first foray into working for myself after I left my corporate and consulting gigs was completely led by what I understood to be my "why" at that time.
[00:03:12] Overview of Start with Why
[00:03:12] Rowena: But now, as we've mentioned in the intro to this episode, I haven't actually read this book. I know, I know, sit down, everybody take a rest. But I have read a few summaries. and have watched a video or two because I can't let Shelley have all the fun. So that said, I'm sure there'll be some listeners who perhaps like me, haven't read this book either, or maybe you read it a very long time ago.
[00:03:37] So Shelley, can you perhaps start us off with an overview of the big ideas in Start With Why?
[00:03:44] Shelley: Sure, Rowena. So, essentially the big question that Start With Why aims to answer is, And this is according to the blurb, is why are some people and organizations more inventive, pioneering and successful than others? And then why are they able to repeat their success again and again? And the answer he gives is that because in business, it doesn't matter what you do, it matters why you do it.
[00:04:15] And I actually, I did find myself wondering, before this book was published in 2009, I don't think we used the word why as a noun, and I don't think it's as common as it is now, like as in, what is your why? Or on companies about pages, they might even say, our why? Or now, honestly, it's grammatically correct to say things like, The why of this product?
[00:04:40] Seriously, I typed that and Grammarly didn't even shout at me. So Simon Sinek has really made why the central question we now ask. And I actually mean that quite literally in terms of what is now the famous golden circle diagram, which consists of three concentric rings. So in the middle, you have why.
[00:05:07] Then you move out a circle to how, and then you move out another circle to what, and the core of the golden circle, the center of it, is the why. And that's the fundamental purpose, cause, or belief that inspires and drives an individual or an organization. So we're looking at, this could be you personally, or or a bigger organizational business.
[00:05:35] Then once you clear on your why, the core of that circle, only then do you move out to go, okay, how can we achieve that why? And then only do you move out and say, okay, what are we going to make or do to achieve the how and achieve the why? But the thing is, and the premise of this book is that most companies and leaders make the mistake of operating from the outside in of that golden circle, starting with what they do, so the what, and then they go, Okay, how are we going to do this?
[00:06:13] All right, then they start figuring out how they're going to do it. And only then they're like, Okay, why did we do this again? You know, like, why did we end up here?
[00:06:22] Why start with Why?
[00:06:22] Shelley: So, according to Sinek, starting with why is essential for your human brain because it taps into the limbic system.
[00:06:31] And I'll trust him on that link between why and this connection to the limbic system? But what I can totally get behind is this idea that if you are clear on your why as a leader, then decision making becomes easier and you'll also attract the people who can get behind that purpose, that why.
[00:06:53] So yeah, so that's the big idea of the book, but then he goes into the different, in the later chapters, one of the other big ideas that he explores is what's called the Law of Diffusion of Innovation. Now that's just a whole fancy idea to say that, If you're an inventor or, or just a business person, you need some brave early adopters when you first launch a product or launch a business into the market and those early adopters have got to buy into your why.
[00:07:27] And so then he goes and looks into how can you rally your people behind your ideas. So those people could be potential customers, or they could be your employees if you're building a larger organization, or leading or managing in a larger organization. And so by leading with your why and creating that sense of purpose and belonging, He argues that leaders can really get the best out of their teams, which again, I, like, I, I totally agree with and I totally agree with that clarity.
[00:07:58] But then, what I didn't always appreciate were the examples that he always keeps citing. So he cites a lot of examples from Southwest Airlines, from Walmart, And a lot from Apple, like a lot. And yeah, I don't like this idea of always venerating Apple. And I feel like you also then have a sample of one, if you keep referring back to one company.
[00:08:25] And also, remember, this is the Apple of pre 2009, so Steve Jobs was still alive, and it was a very different company, and I feel like some of the examples don't always translate into today's time. And yeah, really a lot of the examples were of big corporate American organizations, so for me as a solo business owner, owner, juggling parenting, doing my client work and juggling working on my business and just life, those examples didn't always seem relevant if I'm, if I'm entirely honest with you.
[00:09:00] Rowena: Now, I think that's very interesting because I noticed that too in the summaries that I read, so many examples were from very large US based companies and it did smack of being fairly dated. So at the time of recording, it's at least 15, 16 years since the book was written and a lot has happened in that time, including some less than quality decisions, perhaps we can say made by some of the big companies that he, quotes a lot about.
[00:09:28] How to apply the Golden Circle in your small business
[00:09:28] Rowena: So perhaps, yeah, so perhaps this is where we can dive into some examples that might feel a little bit more relevant for our listeners. I'm specifically interested to dive into what you just talked about, this famous golden circle. And I did have to have a little bit of a chuckle because in our last episode, where we interviewed Mel Daniels about her book, The Power of Content, she says in her book, something along the lines of.
[00:09:52] This is not a book about finding your purpose. You'll have all seen Simon Sinek's Golden Circle to work that out., And I if you haven't listened to Mel's interview, that's episode 47. So Shelley, what would you say or how could you suggest a small business owner could perhaps apply this Golden Circle concept in their business?
[00:10:11] Yes,
[00:10:13] Shelley: this is where we can really start having fun with this book, because the Golden Circle concept is really great, it's so simple, and I think it really is relevant to small businesses. So yeah, this is where we fill in some of the blanks that, uh, that maybe Simon Sinek has left for us.
[00:10:30] So, the mistake that business owners make is And especially small business owners is, is that idea of starting with an idea and really being attached to like, I need a very good idea, a silver bullet that everyone's going to love.
[00:10:45] And so what you're doing there is you're starting with the what, you're starting on the outside of the golden circle. And so you might say, I want to start a membership community, or I want to open a bakery, or I want to make an app for people to sell memberships, or an app for people to sell their cakes.
[00:11:05] So, so none of those ideas are bad necessarily, but the problem is those business owners, those very hypothetical business owners, are starting with what? And then you go into the next level of the concentric circle, but you're going the wrong way around. And you get mired in the details of how, okay, how am I going to do this?
[00:11:26] How am I going to develop this app? How am I going to start the bakery? Let's look at like, um, hiring premises and, you start getting into the weeds of how and speaking from my own experience, I will say this is where I can slip into procrastination and perfectionism and shiny object syndrome of trying to find the perfect tool and sort of how to do my what.
[00:11:48] So instead, we're going to follow Simon Sinek's advice and start with why. Like you mentioned when you started your own business, Where you think about your bigger purpose and big goals, think about what's at the core of what you want to do. Because, for example, maybe the why behind this desire to open a bakery, let's use that example, is maybe because you're bored with your day job and what you really love doing is experimenting with new recipes and then sharing your creations with your friends and family.
[00:12:26] But that why doesn't necessarily translate into the what of opening a bakery. Instead, If you tap into your why, you could think of hundreds of ideas. Like, you could start asking yourself, how can I make my job less boring? Or, is it the experimenting side that you love and maybe you need to start a recipe blog?
[00:12:51] Or is it the time with friends and family that you seeking? But you're actually not quite up to serving fussy customers in a bakery. So I could go on and, um, and I know, Ro, you could definitely go on here because this is exactly the kind of work that you do as a coach, right?
[00:13:08] Is to help people dig into that purpose and that why. ha.
[00:13:13] Rowena: As, as you were just saying all these things, I was like, Oh, and then, and then, because this is completely my jam. And I was thinking all the coaching questions that I'm always asking and clearly rubbing off on you.
[00:13:24]
[00:13:24] Rowena: But I also agree that, um, Tapping into your why and getting more clarity about your purpose, both in life and in business is so important.
[00:13:33] But I do worry that finding your why or your purpose or getting clarity on your mission in the world, these are all really big things. And I suspect for a lot of people, it feels a bit daunting. It feels like it's a life journey and it takes a lot of work to uncover and or maybe unpack and discover that.
[00:13:52] Probably that's why I have a job as a coach, right? To help people discover their purpose and their mission.
[00:13:57] When "finding your why" feels overwhelming
[00:13:57] Rowena: But I'm interested in what practical tips does Simon Sinek offer readers to help them discover their why?
[00:14:03] Shelley: Well, honestly, Ro, not a lot. Not a lot of practical stuff.
[00:14:08] Rowena: right. Whoops.
[00:14:09] sorry
[00:14:10] Shelley: to disappoint you.
[00:14:11] Rowena: Okay. Good to know. So what comments have you got around that then?
[00:14:14] Shelley: Well, the thing is that this is one of the big criticisms of this book and this is not just from me, you know, because I did say I would fast forward everyone to the good bits, and I'm going to be totally honest about the book.
[00:14:25] But yes, it's a general criticism of the book that it lacks practical application. It covers the theory and it almost covers more the why behind the why. And it argues the importance of starting with why, but then it doesn't give you that guidance. on how you can discover your why. And maybe that was the purpose of the book, right?
[00:14:44] You know, you have these sort of manifesto type books of like getting people behind the whole thing, but then it's like up to them to interpret it in their life.
[00:14:52] Rowena: And kind of up to them to do the work. Up to the reader to actually do the work, right.
[00:14:56] Shelley: Yes, but I think we do need some guidance, right, of what this looks like beyond Southwest Airlines and Apple.
[00:15:04] Um, so yeah, just speaking again for myself, I can procrastinate if the question is, How do you find deep meaning and purpose in your life? in pursuits of my own. Why? I mean like that. And that's when I do go, I'm not Steve Jobs, I'm not Martin Luther King. Like another example that he gives in the book.
[00:15:23] Like, wow, these are like big leader ish people. Like, but I am a leader, right? I'm a leader in my home and I'm a leader in my industry, and although I'm not the big names in the book. I can apply some of these principles. So, Rowena, this is where I get two booked up. And I draw on some of the other books, many of which, luckily, we have covered on the show, Two Booked Up.
[00:15:50] And one of those books is Feel Good Productivity by Ali Abdaal. So that's the one that I interviewed you on in episode 45. And I remember one of the choose your own adventures there was to figure out how confident do you really have to be to start taking action on a task? And it's a bit of a loaded question, a clever little question, because I think he's really prompting you to realize that you don't have to know everything about your why before you can get started.
[00:16:24] So like, I don't know, like if you want to launch a business or offer a new service package or decide whether to let your kid go for drum lessons, you don't need the, the whole picture, right? You might need a core of like your why, but you don't have to be completely confident. And I like that. Directive from Ali Abdaal of Basically do it scared like just move forward and and do it scared sometimes you won't have all the answers So I think let's just say that to the listeners and in pursuit of your why I think it's a lifelong journey Keep pursuing your why, keep thinking about your why, but don't let it Lead you into procrastination or to wanting to know all the answers before you take action.
[00:17:08] And, this is where I, I think I'll also reference one of our other favourite authors, Kendra Adachi. You can go and check out The Lazy Genius Way, that's episodes six to ten. And one of Kendra's Lazy Genius principles is to start small. So again, figuring out your life's purpose, to me, is not starting small.
[00:17:31] So Kendra, how can I start small with figuring my why? I would ask her that. And I'm not exactly sure what she'd say, but Kendra's first step to anything is name what matters. And so I can do that because then suddenly I'm not trying to fathom the meaning of life or my business's 10 year plan or their why forever.
[00:17:54] Um, but instead I'm going, well, what matters in my business is that I get to express my creativity in the work that I'm doing. That's really important to me. I get to help people asynchronously because I'm also juggling this job with kids and homeschooling those kids. And what would be also really nice is that I become rich doing all of that.
[00:18:19] And I mean, rich from a financial perspective and a life perspective as well. So that, that takes a bit of work. Even that statement takes a bit of work to clarify and I'm sure Rowena, you could help me dig a bit deeper and make it more meaningful, but there's a lot more practicality and a lot more of a practical directive than this big find your why.
[00:18:46] Like, I would really recommend that listeners just spin it around and go, name what matters.
[00:18:53] Rowena: I love this. And I completely agree actually that that has always been the challenge for me too that finding that big picture why. Well, as I think I said earlier, it can feel really daunting and kind of overwhelming. And for many people and myself included, at various times, it's just feels way too hard.
[00:19:11] But I love your reframe, I guess, or switching it around is to name what matters instead, because it is a much more practical way to do it. And I'd also add that it's probably a more heart centered and values based way to gain clarity and then shift into aligned action, which probably resonates for more of our listeners, I'd say, because most of us are not working in a big corporate world and wanting to kind of run with the big boys in that way.
[00:19:36] We want to be true to ourselves. And I think a heart centered, values based way. It feels a lot more like us.
[00:19:42] Shelley: Yeah. that's, that's a great point.
[00:19:44] Rowena: I think maybe Kendra's approach of name what matters is effectively find your why. It's just a little bit more doable,
[00:19:51] Shelley: Yeah, and I'm gonna I'm gonna add there, Ro, it's also, it's name what matters in the season. So, like, our why, you know, could change across seasons. And so I think by like limiting it, and also name your why, like, I gave the example of your kid going for drum lessons, like, could Think about your why in terms of your parenting and this child and the why in that limited, uh, kind of context and, and for the season of life.
[00:20:18] So it's, it's just making it smaller and it's making it more limited and boundaried and doable.
[00:20:22] Rowena: Yeah, I agree. And I think it's giving it nicely defined. So rather than like boundary or limited, it's thinking here's the definition of what matters to me for this particular moment or this particular child or in this particular situation, and that's a really good tip as well, keeping it very practical and less overwhelming.
[00:20:39] Why people and how people
[00:20:39] Rowena: So now let's jump back into the book. So there is a chapter, Start with Why but Know How, and in that chapter, Simon Sinek has the heading Those Who Know Why Need Those Who Know How. Now I have my own reaction to this, but I'd love to know, Shelley, is that something you agree with?
[00:20:58] Is Simon suggesting that there are why people and how people? Or is he suggesting that perhaps if you're a big picture thinker, a kind of a why person, you might need to team up with more process focused how people and
[00:21:11] vice versa. What do you think? What's he suggesting there?
[00:21:15] Shelley: Yes. It is something that he does suggest and he uses, again, the classic example of Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs was the big visionary, the Why person, and Steve Wozniak was the, the how person, the engineer, who then brought steve Jobs's vision to life. And honestly, Ro I, I, I struggle to accept this like on face value.
[00:21:39] Um, this idea of, oh, there are visionaries versus doers. But Simon does suggest that people with a strong sense of why are sometimes weaker. I think that's what the point maybe he's trying to make is that they are weaker in the how side, the execution side, the actual implementation side. And okay, um, I'm all right there, but I kind of don't think it's fair that a why person could just delegate all the how to someone else.
[00:22:09] And equally, I also think everyone needs a good idea of their own why, even if that's a little bit more process and how centered, if they're more, you know, like to get into the weeds of, of actually doing the work. So, I, you know, I do think we're better together. I think that bringing different people into a team and into a job means that you've got different strengths. And so I'm all for pairing up and teaming up with people who have complementary strengths to you. And I know you will agree with that. And I also think our partnership here at Two Booked Up is a good example of that. We each bring our own strength, but I think we both have a very clear picture of the why.
[00:22:53] And when we've sort of started losing that, we've actually We've come back together and gone, okay, let's recalibrate. What is our why? What are we aiming for at the core of this project? And we both need to buy into that why. And it's not one of us leading that why, right? So this chapter, um, I had some trouble with it.
[00:23:14] Because I think Steve Jobs is portrayed as this misunderstood visionary. And I think be careful of that, like, don't think, because I think I sometimes feel that myself, I'm like, Oh, people misunderstand all these visionary ideas that I have.
[00:23:28] And then, but equally, Like, don't think that you're this, like, victimized engineer that everyone's just demanding that you do all this work and implement all these grand visions and you're not allowed a say on, on the big vision. So we all have very nuanced strengths and we all need to bring that to the table.
[00:23:45] And I think we all have to have our own golden circle kind of operating. I don't think there's, like, why people and how people necessarily.
[00:23:54] Rowena: I have to say I'm very relieved because I'm so glad you said all of that, because yes, we each have strengths and we are all also capable of providing both the vision and making it happen. Um, the research has actually proven that most people can do both. So if we actually go back to, you Pretty fundamental basic research.
[00:24:16] It says, yeah, people have got the, they can do both, but they have preference. Now, for me, it brings to mind the VIA Strength Survey, which I use with my coaching clients. And what I'll, quick rehash, the survey reminds us that we all have 24 different strengths and they are found uniformly around the world in all cultures.
[00:24:37] So it's not, you know, Western centric or anything else. And the other key word there, I'm going to emphasize it, is that they are all strengths. So, for example, the strength of perspective is all about the big picture. So that'd be the person who you might think of as that visionary. So even if it's number 24 for you out of 24.
[00:24:56] It's still a strength, which means you can still utilize it and you can also shift it. You can work on it to bring it up. So everybody's capable of doing both is all I would have to say.
[00:25:07] Um, so I'm really pleased. I think we're in violent agreement there, Shelley, that, yeah.
[00:25:11] Okay. I'll let go of my small rant.
[00:25:14] My small rant is now done.
[00:25:16] Shelley: I loved your small rant.
[00:25:16] Rowena: Um, so Shelley, ah, thank you very much. This is why we have such, um, complimentary strengths. I rant and Shelley compliments me. Perfect. And sometimes Shelley rants and I compliment
[00:25:26] Shelley: absolutely.
[00:25:27] Rowena: how we roll here. Um, okay. I have another question for you.
[00:25:32] Would a company's Why change over time?
[00:25:32] Rowena: Would a company's why change over time? Okay,
[00:25:39] Shelley: I hinted at that of like, uh, do name what matters in the season. And honestly, to answer your question, would a company's why or an individual's why change over time? I would say yes, but I kind of think Simon Sinek would say no. And again, I feel like I'm bringing up all the things that annoyed me in the book, but this idea of the cult of the individual kind of vibe that he brought to this picture.
[00:26:08] He uses another example, I've talked about Steve Jobs and, uh, but then he uses the example of Walmart and he says, Walmart lost their why when Sam Walton, the founder and the long time CEO died. And then Sam's son took over as chairman of the board. Now there was probably lots of factors there of new leadership and new ideas, like market forces would have changed.
[00:26:33] The economy would have changed. All things would have changed. But he blames this only on the fact that Walmart lost their why because Sam Walton was the keeper of the why. And I just, I'm like surely, a company is bigger than, like, the one individual, and I think his point here was that that one individual needs to communicate the why so that he almost, the word that comes to mind is infects the rest of the, that influences, influences the rest of the company with that why.
[00:27:03] The other example, Rowena, I'm just going to tell you that really annoyed me, was, um, Southwest Airlines, and CEO Herb Kelleher, who eventually stepped down as CEO and handed over to a person called Colleen Barrett. And she's one of the few examples of a woman leader mentioned in this book. I'm just saying.
[00:27:25] And then, uh, Barrett is quoted as being quite self deprecating, that she's not the smartest executive in the room, but her job is quite simply to lead people in the cause that Kelleher had founded the company upon. And really, I have trouble accepting that
[00:27:44] Rowena: OK, just revolting.
[00:27:45] Shelley: It's revolting, isn't it?
[00:27:47] Rowena: yes. That is bad
[00:27:48] Shelley: Like, gets the heckles up.
[00:27:51] So I have trouble accepting that certainly as a wide ranging example. Um, yeah, for various reasons, there's so, so much wrong with that. But I think the biggest one is that a company is bigger than one person's vision. And I do think that, that vision and that sense of why can safely change over time. And even if a big corporate can't change its core why, okay, maybe, I definitely think that us as solo preneurs and small businesses, we can definitely have a little bit more leeway to change course as we evolve and our seasons of life change. I think maybe, and maybe this is give Simon benefit of the doubt is that as long as we communicate that change, and this is something that Simon deals with in Chapter 10, where he says that communication is not just about speaking, it's about listening to your people.
[00:28:47] And so as a copywriter and a marketing kind of person, this is where for me, I'm like, yay, okay, messaging comes in, internal messaging in your company and that external messaging. So that you can bring people along for the journey. Which, you know, bringing people along for your journey, for your impact in the world.
[00:29:10] I think that may be the why that unites all of us as human beings. The, this journey that we're on.
[00:29:18] Rowena: Yes, I love that. And I actually think it ties beautifully with what we talked about in our last episode with Mel, which was, she was saying, take people with you and share about yourself. And I think that's part of, if we're thinking about marketing, that's where we actually have our clients or our customers or our employees.
[00:29:37] We bring them with us by sharing about who we are and, what drives us. Which I think is maybe a good place to send our listeners on their own journey as they choose their own adventure.
[00:29:48] So Shelley, can you give us a couple of options for actions that listeners could choose to take after this episode?
[00:29:57] Shelley: Okay, so I can give you two options here. And option number one, I think, would be . The quick win is just maybe have a picture of that golden circle. You'll be able to find it online, even if you don't choose to read the book. And think about that golden circle in terms of your decisions in your life and business.
[00:30:14] So I'm talking about one decision here. So think about If you're getting mired in the what and the how, let's just dial it in to the why of that decision and see if that can help you make a better decision
[00:30:27] And then, uh, Option 2, based on this book, I would say get curious about your why.
[00:30:34] I would say this is more a long term project that you're going to embark upon, but start asking yourself, is this part of my why? Or am I feeling misaligned here because this is not aligned with my why? So this is more of a journaling thing, a journey kind of idea of get curious about your why and and start finding that purpose in your life, but also what matters. Starting small in this season of your life will give you those, very helpful limits as well.
[00:31:05] So there's your Choose Your Own Adventure. You can go and choose either the golden circle or the bigger picture of why. And now it's time for us to share what we're reading and it's Rowena's turn this week.
[00:31:15] Rowena, what are you reading at the moment?
[00:31:17] Rowena: I am about halfway or maybe a third of the way through a brand new book and it is called The Party Crasher by Sophie Kinsella and it's maybe the second book I've ever read by her. actually listening to the audiobook version and it is very, very funny. It's like a rom com with some situational comedy too, so it's pretty funny.
[00:31:38] And I chose it because it's part of my fiction reading challenge, fulfilling the prompt, Which is written under a pseudonym. So yes, this is something I learned this week. Sophie Kinsella is her pen name. Madeline Sophie Wickham is her real name. So there you go, extra little bit of learning that you've picked up.
[00:31:55] So yeah,
[00:31:56] The Party Crasher by Sophie Kinsella is what I'm reading
[00:31:59] right now.
[00:31:59] Shelley: Oh, fun. That sounds really funny. Any book that makes me laugh, an audio book, I see my son doing that. He's taken to be jumping on the trampoline and with his wireless headphones on and laughing his head off to the books that he is listening to at the moment. So I think that is a wonderful recommendation for our listeners.
[00:32:19] Trampolines are optional.
[00:32:21] Rowena: Some of us of a certain age should not be jumping on a trampoline, just saying.
[00:32:24] Shelley: Absolutely. I canceled that idea when I took my kids to Jump Once and I'm like, I am 40. I am not going to do a knee here. But yes, what I also love about that book is it's part of your fiction reading challenge. And I'd love to remind our listeners about our Read More in 24, Two Booked Up nonfiction reading challenge, where we've got 24 categories of books, and it's kind of like, see if you can collect them all.
[00:32:49] It's We should call it the Pokemon Challenge, the Book Pokemon Challenge of trying to catch them all. You can try and catch all 24 of those categories of non
[00:32:58] Rowena: There's probably some copyright.
[00:33:00] I
[00:33:02] Shelley: totally.
[00:33:03] Rowena: think the Pokemon thing, there might be copyright on
[00:33:05] that. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
[00:33:07] Shelley: So cancel, cancel that, but you can go and go and catch all those books or half of them. It's meant to provide you some great inspiration to read more widely and just read more full stop. So that's where we're going to wrap things up today, but let's continue the conversation with Start With Why. I was probably quite hard on it and quite judgy on it.
[00:33:29] I'd love to hear what you think and have you appreciated Start With Why or do you agree with some of my misgivings about the book? So you can connect with me on LinkedIn, I'm Shelley Tonkin Smith there. And you can also learn more about my copywriting business at Shelleysmithcreative.com.
[00:33:47] And I'm just going to add, that I'm going to be running a program called Words, Web and Wisdom, or WWW.
[00:33:55] Now it's starting in the second week of July 2024.
[00:33:59] In this program, I will guide you to write and design your own beautiful website at a fraction of the cost of outsourcing to specialist copywriters like myself, to designers and to developers, And I'm going to do all of that in just six weeks.
[00:34:16] So this is a special beta version of a course that I plan to build out in future. And so I'm limiting numbers to just eight people. And it's also at a never to be repeated price too So if you are in time to hear this before the start of July 2024, and you want to write and build your own websites, or you want to refresh your existing websites, then I'm going to say that this is a sign to sign up for Words, Web and Wisdom.
[00:34:46] You can go to wordswebwisdom.carrd.co, that's Carrd with two Rs, and I will put that link in the show notes.
[00:34:56] And Ro, having worked with you as a coach, I know you'll definitely be able to help our listeners if they're looking to do the work of finding their why and getting a little more clear on their mission and playing to their strengths. So tell us, where can our listeners find you?
[00:35:12] Rowena: Thank you. Yes. You can find me on Instagram at Rowena Mabbott, or if you're interested in my coaching services, you can book a complimentary consultation call with me. Additionally, if you're keen to learn more about your strengths, you could book directly for a Clarity Kickstart.
[00:35:28] It's my very short, transformative, powerful coaching, where we focus on your strengths and some good news. I've also opened up new appointment times that work for lots of different time zones,
[00:35:38] including those in North America.
[00:35:41] Shelley: And South Africa!
[00:35:42] Rowena: and South Africa, correct.
[00:35:44] For all of this and, information about my fiction and nonfiction books, just head over to my website, which is RowenaMabbott.com.
[00:35:52] Shelley: And then, of course, remember to visit twobookedup. com. You can get the show notes, you can get that download for the 24 for 2024 reading challenge. That's totally free. And for now, I am Shelley Tonkin Smith, giving you permission to act like a toddler and ask yourself, Why?
[00:36:10] Rowena: And I'm Rowena Mabbott. We'll see you in two weeks time for another episode of Two Booked Up. Thanks for listening.
