TBU#45: Can Good Feelings = Good Productivity?

Two Booked Up Episode 45 Can Good Feelings = Good Productivity? [00:00:00] Rowena: Hello friends, you're listening to Two Booked Up, . I'm Rowena Mabbott, joined, as always, by my bookish, biz bestie, Shelley Tonkin Smith. [00:00:12] Shelley: Hello, Ro. I am very excited about today's episode because I'm going to be interviewing you about Feel Good Productivity, the book by Ali Abdaal. And I think this is going to be super fun because I haven't read the book, but you have. So we're trying a new approach here. And it's actually one of the ideas that Ali discusses in the book. By having more fun, by trying new things, we can be more productive. So if you are up for some feel good productivity, then this is the episode for you. [00:00:47] Rowena: The idea is that we can accomplish more by focusing on our well being and enjoying the process. Now that is completely up our alley here at Two Booked Up. So, let's jump in. [00:00:57] Shelley: Welcome to Two Booked Up. I'm Shelley Tonkin Smith. [00:01:03] Rowena: And I'm Rowena Mabbott. We're two well read best friends. [00:01:07] Shelley: And now you are an honorary member of our book club. We are going to fast forward you to the mind blown and mic drop parts of those business and personal development books that are probably on your must read list. [00:01:21] Rowena: Because as busy, multi passionate working parents, we know how hard it is to find time to read, but we also know how much you love learning, growing and making a difference in the world. [00:01:32] Shelley: So treat yourself to some bookish conversation, whether you've read the book or not. [00:01:38] Rowena: With your two friends on Two Booked Up. [00:01:42] Shelley: Okay, so we are chatting about Feel Good Productivity by Ali Abdaal. Now, regular listeners will know that we've read quite a few books that touch on productivity. So you can go back to our back catalogue and listen to the episodes on The Lazy Genius Way by Kendra Adachi. Those are episodes six to nine, then Essentialism by Greg McKeon. Those are episodes 11 to 14. I do a bit of a takedown of Atomic Habits by James Clear, which is in episodes 23 and 24. Four Thousand Weeks is a favorite by Oliver Berkman, and that's episodes 25 to 27. And then even our recent chat about Tranquility by Tuesday by Laura Vanderkamp, that was episode 41. And Indistractable by Nir Eyal, episode 42. So there's Tons of episodes that we've got about productivity. And it really is a bit of a theme that's come through in the books that we've chosen and that we know that is important to you, This is a subject that we keep coming back to, because let's be honest, we are busy, we do have limited time to do the work we want to do in the world, and so we want to be productive in that limited time that we have and do the things that we love and the things that bring light into the world. So with that said, the premise of this book is that the secret to productivity isn't more discipline or more planners or more like, you know, all of this kind of, strong arm kind of strategies, but it's actually bringing in more joy. So that sounds absolutely delightful to me. I'm so excited, about this concept. And the author, Dr. Ali Abdaal, he is the world's most followed productivity expert. I'm sure you might have seen one of his videos on YouTube, although I don't know, Ro, did you know about, Dr. Ali Abdaal before you read this book? [00:03:46] Rowena: Absolutely not. I knew nothing about him. I just liked the title. Actually, I think it might have been recommended to me on Audible. And we have read a productivity book on our 24 for 2024 reading challenge list. So I thought, why not? [00:04:01] Shelley: Okay, great. So this was like a new discovery for you. Also, by the way, listeners, if you're not sure what we're talking about with the reading challenge, you can sign up for that at signup. twobookedup. com. We'll leave a link for that in the show notes. What it is, is a cute little checklist of sort of, let's call it genres of nonfiction books, and it's like a little bit of a treasure hunt, I would call it, if we're adding some feel good and playfulness into our productivity here, um, to bring a little bit more diversity and a little bit more, fun and playfulness into your reading life. So, back to Feel Good Productivity. The premise is that Productivity is about feeling good. It's not about hustling. And this idea is something that I can definitely get behind of getting off the hassle treadmill. And I think this is something that a lot of our listeners. resonate with too. So if you like us feel time poor sometimes because you are multi passionate, you've got a lot on your plate, we are there with you. And I think that's why I really love the idea of this book. And I'm so excited for you to tell us a little bit more, Ro. So, tell us a little bit more about the premise of the book,. [00:05:16] Rowena: Sure. So yeah, the main idea is that the key to improved productivity isn't working harder or being more disciplined or even being more efficient, rather, like the title suggests, it's actually feeling good and tapping into the emotions that support us to make good decisions and feel motivated. So, as Ali likes to point out, good feelings aren't a side effect after being productive. They're actually the very thing that supplies us with the energy. And it takes energy to do anything at all. And so we need to harness those feel good feelings. Those positive feelings to then actually take the action which then leads to the productivity. So it's quite a different approach, but one that intuitively makes sense as soon as you start thinking about it and thinking about when you've been productive doing anything. It's usually because you've been feeling pretty good and you've been getting the cycle of positive reinforcement so you keep going, right? So does that sound like something you're familiar [00:06:13] Shelley: Oh, yeah, yeah, it's like getting in the zone and the actual the work itself kind of fuels you and I'm seeing this fun element as a fuel like the way you describe it. And then it's not just like, yeah, that you're ticking off your to do list. It's actually the work itself is fun and that inspires you to keep going. [00:06:32] Rowena: Kind of like regenerative braking in the electric vehicles, right? So they, you brake and it, well, I have very limited understanding, but I think in, with regenerative braking, when you brake in the car or you, certain way you brake with an electric vehicle, I don't have an electric vehicle, I should just explain that this is me just trying to make sense of something. But the idea being that you do something and then you recharge yourself. And the idea being that, by tackling productivity from a feel good perspective and coming at it with that lens and that perspective, you actually end up being more productive. But that said, he doesn't just focus on how you can be even more productive. He actually focuses on the feel good part and then looks at the various obstacles that we face that can stop us from feeling good. And that can also stop us from being productive as well as looking at the things that help us feel good and help us be productive. So it's quite a simple approach from that sense, but, there's an awful lot of research in here. [00:07:28] Shelley: Oh, nice, nice. Oh, [00:07:30] Rowena: Yeah so for anybody who likes a bit of research, this is a great book for [00:07:34] Shelley: cool. Now, does he have a framework for like, like, how does he actually propose that you bring more fun into your work? [00:07:42] Play, Power & People - the 3Ps for feel-good productivity [00:07:42] Rowena: Yeah. So the three Ps, . So the first P is for play, which we've talked about [00:07:48] Shelley: Oh, yeah. [00:07:48] Rowena: of times. We do love a bit of play and playfulness. And the idea is that seriousness makes us tense. And when we're tense, we rarely do our best work. And so therefore we can bring in a bit more play. Now there were some really great questions here. And they actually tie in pretty well with what we talked about in our recent episode about Tranquility by Tuesday. With my key takeaway from that, which was around creating an adventure. And Ali talks about creating an adventure. So he talks about it like a side quest. So one of the questions that he loves to be asking himself to make things feel more fun is "what will today's side quest be?" And the other question that he uses is what "would this look like if it was fun?" Now I found asking those two questions is actually already massively transformative in the way I work, um, or even the way I just do stuff, right? Like the side quest is how can you make there be an element of challenge or of adventure in your regular everyday activities, which I think is so cool. [00:08:49] Shelley: So it's so it's not just the like, what you have to do. Is it adding something fun? Is it? [00:08:56] Rowena: Sort of. So a side quest is your opportunity to explore your curiosity and bring in more adventure and fun. So, for example, he, will talk about a side quest being something you and I will talk about it, Shelley, as being where we let our shiny new thing syndrome, right? Where we get curious about something and instead of perhaps we say, right, when I finish this particular task, I'm going to go and indulge my curiosity and have a little read about X, Y, or Z. And so what he's saying is just actually embrace that. What will today's, what will be, what are you giving permission to go and actually have fun with? And even what would this look like if it was fun? So he said, gave some examples, he's a doctor, a medical doctor, and when he was studying his undergraduate degree and postgraduate studies in medicine, there was a lot of study and he worked out that it was really easy to procrastinate on that. Until he worked out that it would be more fun if he listened to music while he did it. So he then would put his headphones on and listen to music and then it felt a lot more fun and so he would actually consistently work at it rather than just giving up because it felt hard. [00:09:58] Shelley: Okay, so it's as simple as that. Like, just add [00:10:01] Rowena: Yep, it doesn't have to be complicated. Yeah, yeah. So that was, and I liked that because it's really kind of no brainer stuff that you think, Oh yeah, I could do that. Like it's not complicated. So that's the first P. The second P is power. And he said, this is about confidence, not control. And we need to feel empowered to shape our lives and work. And so then there's a little bit of referencing autonomy and how we feel in control about things, which reminded me a little bit about our episodes around Workstyle, because autonomy in work style was one of the key aspects as well, so that people can feel empowered to control and influence the nature of their work. And this had that same kind of vibe around power. And then the third P is people. So nothing motivates us like the right people who naturally lift us up by their mere presence. And so he loves to share like experiments, each kind of key insight for each chapter. There's usually two or three key insights for each chapter. And then within that, there are experiments. So there's a lot of really practical stuff in this book. And the people is one one that perhaps our listeners might like to try as well, is he said the benefits of co working. So he said, even when you're working on something completely different, just having someone on the other end of the screen or being physically in the same environment as someone else who's working on something, even if it's completely different from you, there are positive benefits about feeling good by being surrounded by others who are working on similar things or just working at the same time as you. He said there's also about having the right people. So the people who elevate our mood and make us feel great versus those energy vampires. Avoid the vampires and we hang out with the people who help us feel good about ourselves. So that's kind of the, yeah, so it's about how people can energize us into action. [00:11:45] Shelley: That's an interesting one for versus extroverts. Knowing how you get energized by other people, but like, you need people, whether you're an introvert or an extrovert or whatever it is, but there's so much benefit to surrounding yourself with the right people. And, and I liked the idea of the second P, which was power. Of having control over your, and knowing that you have control over your workday, I think that's going to be essential to productivity If you feel like somebody is controlling you and controlling your workday, and kind of calling the shots, then it's, oh, that is not feel good productivity. But when you have that ownership, that agency to plan your work day and to choose how you spend your time, I think, to me that, that really makes me feel good about doing the work that I need to do. Yeah, even the work that I need to do, cause recently I had to edit some school textbooks that I wrote, many years ago and they need a bit of a revise and updating. I was finding myself procrastinating about it. And I didn't know that question of how can I make it fun, but I was kind of going, all right, how can I make this more playful? How can I actually, you know, just take the first step, into doing it. And once I did get into it, it was fun. It was actually quite cool. And there was of course, plenty of opportunities for side quests there, in going to research some of the, new, um, technological advances and that kind of thing . So yeah, but I did find myself, Ro, procrastinating there and thinking back to our procrastination episode. Um, so I'm interested to know, [00:13:22] Rowena: hmm. [00:13:23] Shelley: does Ali have anything more to say about procrastination and how to address that? [00:13:29] On Procrastination [00:13:29] Rowena: Oh, yes, he does. He has lots of chapters about procrastination, in fact. That's, that's kind of part two. So part one was all about the three P's, and so each one of those P's has an entire chapter, and procrastination, again, he loves things in threes. So there's three parts to the whole book, and that book, therefore, each part has three chapters, which means there's a total of nine chapters. It's for someone who likes threes, this is an ideal book to read. So what he talks about is that there are three main blockers for procrastination. That stop us from taking action, that they're our most common productivity issue is procrastination. The three things are fear, uncertainty, and inertia. So, as we've talked about on previous episodes, Shelley, that the fear of not knowing or not being good enough can stop us. Sometimes that can be why we procrastinate. The uncertainty about not really knowing what we have to do. That can be another reason we procrastinate. And inertia, just failure to get started. Because he also quotes the physics thing, you know, an object at rest stays at rest, and so if you're just not doing anything, it's pretty easy just to stay not doing anything. But then he talks about the ways to overcome this. So clarity. Which we love here as well. So figure out exactly what you have to do. Often only takes a few simple questions. So he really does run through the questions that kids ask. Why? Why am I doing this? How am I going to do it? What do I have to do and when? So he says by getting really granular you can overcome some of those concerns. Courage. So everyone's afraid sometimes, but we are all living proof that we can overcome our fear. And so sometimes we just have to kind of get on and do it. And then the last one to overcome inertia, he says is getting started. Obviously, that's the best way to overcome it. But the he then again, gives experiments about how you can kind of move yourself into it. [00:15:15] Shelley: Yeah. And I think that the clarity step also, I think helps with the inertia of like, actually even just going, okay, let me outline this task, you know, why, how, what, when, even that can be your first step in overcoming the inertia as well. So I think like asking those questions can have two functions to get you going. [00:15:35] Rowena: And exactly. And he also says sometimes, and we've talked about this a number of times in the various books we've talked about, is the idea that you just start small. Just start with something really little because you just need to get into some form of motion. Because action builds motivation, which then builds momentum. [00:15:52] Shelley: Mm hmm. [00:15:53] Rowena: So you don't wait for motivation to take action, the action actually gives you the momentum and the motivation to keep going, which I thought was really important. [00:16:02] Shelley: focuses and you can hear he's obviously a medical doctor, all the physics metaphors are coming through here, which is, and I'm talking about my natural science and technology textbooks as well. This is getting quite scientific, isn't it? [00:16:16] Rowena: It is! Well and the thing is it's quite good is it it's it is a very scientific approach that he's written it in. So there's lots of experiments and trying things and he's a, and I guess if I was going to give it a summary, which I know we're not quite at, but he's very much the idea that we, he recommends we try to become productivity scientists. And he suggests that's how you can take all the material in this book and actually apply it in your own life is by trying it out, experimenting with it. And if it works, great. Keep using it. And if it doesn't, ditch it and move on to the next thing and keep practicing and trying until you find something that you really like and works for you. Which I really like that approach. I was like, yeah, it's not a how to, he's given you heaps of ideas. Like lots of ideas like, listeners may not realize I took about 13 or 14 pages of notes listening to this audio book. And really, it's about a five hour audio book that is an excessive number of notes because that's A4 pages typed. But I kind of couldn't stop because everything seemed to be such a good, valuable point that I was like, Oh, I have to write that down so I don't forget. [00:17:18] Shelley: Yes, yes. So maybe a book to read in print. I don't know. Or did you enjoy...? [00:17:23] Rowena: Possibly, I think so. I did like listening to him because he reads it himself, but he does speak very fast. Um, [00:17:30] Shelley: packed with info. [00:17:31] Rowena: slow him. Yeah. Yeah. I had to slow him down a little bit because I couldn't quite grasp the full complexity of what he was saying. Not because I couldn't understand him, but just because my brain needed time to kind of catch up and really process what he was suggesting. [00:17:45] Shelley: But that's, that's probably a first for you. I think, you know, we've often listened to audio books on 1.25 or 1.5 speed and you're actually slowing him down. Okay, so that, that, that sounds really cool, Ro. [00:17:57] On Burnout [00:17:57] Shelley: Um, one of the things that just has occurred to me now with all this focus on productivity and getting things done and, now you've got this energy, you've got this fuel and you're getting a lot of joy from your work and, and being productive, but at some points you do hit that point of like, oh, My goodness, I have just got so much on my plate. I've got so many responsibilities. And as working parents, I think a lot of us can get to teetering on the brink of burnout. And in trying to be productive all the time. Um, we kind of need a rest time, really. How does he handle feel good productivity the light of burnout? Because obviously we can't be on all the time, right? [00:18:40] Rowena: Mm hmm yep you're right and that's an excellent question because he does talk about burnout that is part three and he points out that burnout isn't just burnout and I really liked this section I was So, um, I was predisposed to think, yeah, yeah, yeah, because I'd read, Emily and Amelia Nagoski's book, Burnout, which is a fabulous resource. And so I was kind of predisposed to think, yeah, yeah, I know all this, but actually I liked Ali's new approach to this. He's got some really good ideas here and I would love to share them with you. Once again. Guess what? There are three. Three approaches. So he suggests that there are three types of burnout and therefore we must avoid these three types of burnout if we want to maximize our opportunity for long term feel good productivity. So the first burnout is the sort that you and I would most readily associate with the word, which is overexertion. And it's simply when we are trying to do too much or we've committed to do too much, and it's just not working for us anymore, like we are just literally, you know, exhausted. It can be that we've overexerted ourselves or it can be that we've been tasked with doing things that we are then overwhelmed by. So that's that first part of burnout. The second type is called depletion burnout. And this is where your tanks feel empty because you only top them up with little breaks not the deep rest we all need from time to time. So this is where perhaps you only ever take Like a five minute break between things or Shelley, you are fabulous at taking holidays on a regular basis. So if you weren't taking holidays, this is where you'd get to a point of maybe depletion burnout where you just hadn't filled your tank up again. You're kind of topping it up, you know, like where people have a sip from their water bottle instead of drinking a glass of water. It's that same idea. And then the third form of burnout. Which was one that, um, really kind of struck me as a bit of an ah ha moment because it's not related to the number of hours worked, but it's about how you feel. And so it's when work stops feeling meaningful, enjoyable or manageable. So the third type of burnout is misalignment burnout. And that's where, over time, a gap has grown between you and your work and it no longer feels meaningful and that's why you're just bone tired because the work you're doing doesn't feel like it's aligned to who you are. And he goes into a bit of detail with this around where it's potentially in clashing with your values or where you've changed but your work hasn't or whether your work's changed but you haven't. Um, so it was some really good insights there and there's a lot more kind of coaching suggestions in there. So a lot of the experiments he suggests in this book. third part around burnout are very familiar to me because they're things that I work with my clients on so for example, doing your eulogy so you travel into the future and try and articulate What would you like people to say about you at your funeral and then use that to work out what the gap is between where you want to be ultimately, what you, what you value and what you want people to say about you versus your reality right now. So there's a lot of those kinds of experiments in this space because that's how we can overcome burnout because he says we should tackle it by recharging and realigning and that's the realigning pieces of where we say. Potentially the reason we're being burned out is because something's wrong. And so we need to realign or we need to kind of course correct. And so that that can be committing to fewer tasks. One of the options he talks about at some length is spending time in nature. So actually getting out and he gives some terrific examples from research where they've found that even looking at a picture of, you know, trees and water can have the same benefits. Or almost the same benefits of someone spending three hours out hiking. And the also, the last bit, that life coachy bit that I really liked was regularly thinking about where our lives are headed. So that was the other thing that he says, we need to do that, we need to have that introspection and self reflection on a regular basis to be able to ensure we don't end up burnt out. Because when we are burnt out, our productivity will tank, and also we won't feel good anymore. So it kind of goes against all three words in the title of the book. So there was quite a lot in that burnout section that was not what you would normally associate with feel good productivity, but a lot of value in there as well, some really excellent suggestions [00:22:54] Shelley: It does sound super interesting. And I think that misalignment reason for burnouts can be the hardest one because you're like, I shouldn't be tired. You know, I've got a manageable amount of work and, you know, it's not the overexertion stuff. It's like, I shouldn't be feeling like this. But it's actually that misalignment. So tuning into that and tapping into that, I think is, is very powerful. So yeah, I think this sounds like a fabulous book. So maybe let's just, wrap up the actual book, uh, some key takeaways that you'd really like to leave people with that we haven't covered so far, Ro, what are some of the things that I haven't asked you so far that you'd like to make sure people know about this book? [00:23:35] Rowena: Probably I didn't dwell on it enough is about making it fun. He really does emphasize that the whole point is about feeling good. And so everything you should be doing should be helping you to feel good and having positive emotion. Not to the point where everything's got to feel good all the time. He says that's not humanly possible, but he does say you should always be kind of moving towards a place where it is feeling positive. And if the work itself, if you can't change the work itself, change the way you think about the work itself. So I really liked that. That's something we haven't touched on, this idea that, and we've talked about ownership. If you don't own the what, you can have ownership over the how. So if you can't take ownership of the situation, you can still take ownership of the process. So that's quite useful if we're feeling a lack of control. We can switch it around and so we can turn our have to into a choose to and I think we've probably all heard examples, you know, instead of I have to make dinner, I choose to make dinner [00:24:28] Shelley: Or I get to make dinner! [00:24:29] Rowena: Dinner. Yeah, right. So it's just little tiny tweaks like that, that can actually shift your whole energy again, because he loves the energy piece, but can also shift your mood about stuff. And so a lot of it's around our moods as well. So that would be kind of my thing. And also, I guess the other thing I'd add is, if reading this book sounds fascinating, but you just think, Oh, I don't even have five hours or six hours to listen to an audio book. Just check out Ali's YouTube channel. I think it could be just as productive. And he has got loads of stuff on there. And he's a really generous researcher. He shares a lot of great stuff. So I think that would be just as good. [00:25:05] Shelley: Great, well, this sounds like a really great read. I think I'm gonna add it to my TBR list and add it to my productivity tick off on our, 2024 reading challenge. It sounds, I really do love this emphasis on fun and making it quite intentional about bringing fun into our productivity because this has been a big part of my journey and a big part of what I teach and the way I approach my work is to bring play into your work, bring a playful attitude, a playful spirit. But I like this idea here of then that actually energizes you and that is the catalyst. Because honestly, sometimes I find myself, feel like my work can be my self care, like actually diving in and maybe going on those side quests can actually be really joyful for me. And so yeah, I think, I think he gives me permission for that, but he also gives me the warning to look out for burnouts, so I think this sounds like a fabulous read, as I say, I'm going to add it to, to my list. [00:26:06] Choose your own adventure! [00:26:06] Shelley: But now it's time for listeners to choose their own adventure, you've said that there's so many ideas experiments that you can try from this book. Can you give us two that you'd recommend listeners could choose from as they walk away from this episode? [00:26:22] Rowena: Of course. And based on what you've just said, I think option one has to be, how can you make a task more fun? So just ask yourself, this is your option one. What would this look like if it was fun and see what you can come up with? Maybe it's as simple as playing some music like Ali did, or maybe it's something else. So that's option one and option two, your second choice for Choose Your Own Adventure is to consider where inertia is impacting you. So that's the. It's kind of staying where you are, so identify it and choose to get started anyway. And the key questions that you could ask yourself instead are, how confident do I actually need to feel to just get started with this? Can I get started even though I'm not confident? Again, using those questions could be the game changer you need, and just see if it helps you move into action. So that would be my two choose your own adventure tasks. So, which leads us to the next bit. Shelley. What have you been reading recently? [00:27:20] Shelley: Well, on my holiday away, I have been reading a nonfiction book. It's called Think Faster, Talk Smarter, How to Speak Successfully When You're Put on the Spot. So it's a book that I've chosen because I obviously do podcasting and we do need to be able to think. I think we need to listen to each other. We need to be able to speak when put on the spot. So the book focuses on impromptu speaking, but I found that there are so many life lessons, confidence lessons that can be applied not just in impromptu speaking, but in life in general. So that is by Matt Abrahams and it's called Think Faster, Talk Smarter. [00:28:02] Rowena: That sounds fantastic. I think I might have to add that one to my TBR list because thinking fast, although I would say my family would say, please don't talk any faster to me. [00:28:13] Shelley: Okay, well, that is where we are going to wrap things up today. But let's continue the conversation as always. Connect with me on LinkedIn. I'm Shelley Tonkin Smith, and you can learn more about my copywriting business at shelleysmithcreative. com. And where can listeners find you, Ro? [00:28:29] Rowena: You can find me at Rowena Mabbott on Instagram and visit RowenaMabbott. com for information about my coaching services and my books. [00:28:38] Shelley: And of course, remember to visit twobookedup. com for show notes and to download the 24 for 2024 Reading Challenge PDF for free. I'm Shelley Tonkin Smith, encouraging you to have more fun and try out the feel good productivity techniques. [00:28:55] Rowena: And I'm Rowena Mabbott. We'll see you in two weeks time for another episode of Two Booked Up.