Episode Transcript
TBU Episode 54
[00:00:00] Shelley: Hello and welcome to Two Booked Up. I'm Shelley Tonkin Smith here with my podcast co host and biz bestie Rowena Mabbott. Hello, Ro.
[00:00:16] Rowena: Hi Shelley, I'm so excited to discuss today's book, From Strength to Strength, Finding Success, Happiness and Deep Purpose in the Second Half of Life by Arthur C. Brooks. I am a huge fan of Arthur's writing, especially his How to Build a Life series and his writings on happiness, and I frequently recommend his articles to clients.
[00:00:37] Shelley: Yes, I know you've been talking about this book ever since you read it. So it's been probably over a year now that I've been hearing about From Strength to Strength for you. It is a number one New York Times bestseller. So you're not. It's only fan for sure. And the book is all about finding true happiness and satisfaction, particularly as we navigate the second half of our lives.
[00:01:02] But don't worry , you don't need to be in your fifties or older to get something out of this book. On the contrary, instead, Brooks explores how we can shift our focus. From this relentless pursuit of success, which sometimes becomes more harmful than helpful, even in the earlier part of our lives.
[00:01:22] And we are gonna shift from that striving to building a life that's rich in relationships, in meaning and contentment. So that is right up our alley here on Two Booked Up,
[00:01:35] Rowena: absolutely! So, without further ado, let's dive in!
[00:01:40] Welcome to Two Booked Up, I'm Rowena Mabbott.
[00:01:49] Shelley: And I'm Shelley Tonkin Smith. We are two well-read best friends.
[00:01:54] Rowena: And now you are an honorary member of our book club. We're going to fast forward you to the mind blown and mic drop parts of those business and personal development books that are probably on your must read list.
[00:02:06] Shelley: Because as multi passionate working parents, we know how hard it is to find time to read, but we also know how much you love learning, growing and making a difference in the world.
[00:02:17] Rowena: So treat yourself to a bit of bookish conversation, whether you've read the book or not.
[00:02:22] Shelley: With your two friends on Two Booked Up.
[00:02:25] All right, so we start in our first book based episode of season four of Two Booked Up with an interview. We had such a lot of fun taking the interview approach in season three that we thought we'd bring it back again this time. So Rowena has been the one to have read From Strength to Strength, but I haven't read the book.
[00:02:52] I have watched Arthur C. Brooks TED Talk, so I've got a loose idea about what Arthur Brooks talks about. But like we did in episode 45, talking about Feel Good Productivity, and in episode 48, chatting about Start With Why, we're mixing things up with this kind of interview format. So
[00:03:12] I've got lots of questions based off of the TED talk that I watched, and I'm so excited to learn more about From Strength to Strength. And I do actually have a copy of the book. The book, so it is most definitely on my TBR list. So given that, I'm going to start you off easy. And I think let's just, like, rewind back to what made you decide to read this book. And then what was your initial impression of it?
[00:03:39] I
[00:03:41] Rowena: cool. Thanks. So first of all, it was the title, of course, because it had strengths mentioned in the title. It kind of hooked me with that. I was very interested, but I'd also helped that I'd been reading Arthur's weekly columns in the Atlantic,
[00:03:56] and I was really enjoying his weekly columns. I was Um, in fact, I think on the strength of those columns, no pun intended, I actually encouraged my husband to get me a Atlantic subscription so I could make sure I didn't miss any of those columns. So I wasn't specifically looking for a book about aging because I thought this book initially I thought, Oh, it's all about, you know, getting older.
[00:04:16] But as I read it, I realized that actually that wasn't what it was about. It was much more relatable than that. What I also loved once I started reading was just how refreshingly honest Arthur is about the challenges we face as we age.
[00:04:30] And it's not as we age, like when we get really old, but We're changing, I think the challenges we face in our 30s are different from the challenges we face in our 40s. Um, and he doesn't sugar coat the fact that a lot of professionals, especially those who've been very conscientiously striving to climb the corporate ladder, um, and I recognize myself in that and I recognize a number of my friends in that.
[00:04:53] They often experience a decline in their professional abilities or their status as they age. So they either, their brain stops working quite as well, or they start being kind of moved to the side. And that can be a bit of an identity shift. So then, Of course, what I loved, and this is why we're talking about it here, is because after making his case, the rest of the book then offers a roadmap for transforming the normal, natural shift of kind of aging into something much more meaningful and how do we make our lives even better?
[00:05:23] Shelley: love that. It sounds like he's flipping the script on what is success and what really constitutes success. Do you think that would be a fair comment?
[00:05:34] Rowena: Absolutely. One of my biggest aha moments, because we love those kind of mic drop moments here on Two Booked Up, was when he talked about the two curves in life. And the first one is the curve of fluid intelligence, which peaks early. And it varies. He goes into a bit of detail in the book about how different career types have different peaks of fluid intelligence.
[00:05:55] And the second curve is the curve of crystallized intelligence, which can actually increase as we age, which I love. And as soon as I read that, my mind was pinging with all sorts of examples where people I know and love have done exactly that, where they've moved from one curve to the next. OK, super
[00:06:13] Shelley: interesting. But now, just for those of us non psych majors around here, I count myself in that group. Um, will you just explain to us what's the difference between fluid intelligence and crystallized intelligence?
[00:06:28] Rowena: course, . So fluid intelligence is our reasoning ability and the ability to generate, transform, manipulate ideas of novel information in real time. So that's where you're thrown a problem and you can quickly solve it, even if you've never seen it before. Um, so crystallized intelligence is where you're thrown a problem and you can draw on your previous experience, your general knowledge, your vocabulary, and your reasoning based so your previous experience to answer the problem.
[00:06:54] So basically crystallized intelligence is your general knowledge, your vocab, your acquired information. Fluid intelligence is that movable thing. So if you look at your kids, they've got fluid intelligence. You know how they're like sponges, they always are learning more stuff. Yeah, right, exactly.
[00:07:13] Shelley: Can see how then in the later part of life, you would, um, your crystallized intelligence, you would have more of that general knowledge, more of that experience to draw on. And I suppose also in the workplace right now, I think it is more the fluid intelligence that kind of gets rewarded
[00:07:30] Rowena: attention. Yep.
[00:07:31] Shelley: Yes,
[00:07:33] Rowena: gets rewarded, yeah. But the crystallized intelligence is where there's a lot of value and power, because it's the people who've been around, been around the block a few times, have seen things before and have learnt from their experiences. So it's, it's really that kind of, um, Elder status, which I think we'll get to, because he talks about that a little bit in the book as well.
[00:07:53] So I won't get into all the scientific background around fluid and crystallized intelligence, but if you, anybody listening is really keen, you can search the psychologist Raymond Cattell, because he proposed the model of intelligence with fluid and crystallized back in 1943. So a fairly long time ago now, and a lot of research has verified it since then.
[00:08:13] So there's been a lot of really detailed, thorough research to confirm that this model applies.
[00:08:19] Shelley: Very cool. Very cool. So yeah, I'm, I'm kind of seeing this very wise sage that, uh, as we get older, we develop this crystallized intelligence. I'm actually picturing my, my granny, who I think when this is, she will be 98 years old. She is going to be turning 98. So she's amazingly wise. And yeah, talk about crystallized intelligence.
[00:08:42] She's just the picture that pops into my mind. Um, but. As you've said, this is not, um, it's not just like for the elderly and it's not just for like aging as such, uh, what are some of the ways that even for us now, you know, in, in our forties or thirties, uh, what are some of the ways that we can see this crystallized intelligence manifesting in our lives?
[00:09:05] Rowena: Yeah, for sure. So it actually includes things like coaching and mentoring and teaching. So if you are in a workplace and you're coaching somebody, or you're giving some mentorship, or you're instructing somebody on something, you're using your crystallized intelligence. So for a lot of us, we actually start using these skills a lot earlier than, you know, being an, being elderly, they start, they start quite young.
[00:09:29] so the idea is though, that we can embrace this second curve. So the people, this is really for the people who've been striving, striving, striving, and maybe are reluctant to embrace this second curve, or they feel like they're declining. This is how they can then embrace this second curve is by focusing on wisdom.
[00:09:48] So that wisdom piece, but also the teaching and nurturing relationships rather than constantly striving for more success. And as I said, coaching and mentoring a big part of that. And in fact, there is a quote from the book that I think absolutely captures it. So this is a direct quote from Arthur C. Brooks. " We chase our worldly attachments up our first success curve. We work ourselves to death to attain the elusive satisfaction. When the success curve starts to bend back down, the attachments give us tremendous suffering. These attachments must be chipped away to make it possible to jump onto the second curve."
[00:10:26] Shelley: okay, cool. Yeah, so this is one of the key ideas I remember you talking about and it formed such a beautiful mental picture. And one that Arthur also gets really excited about. It's that switch from add in to chipping away.
[00:10:40] So can you tell us more about that?
[00:10:43] Rowena: Yes, this is my, this is actually, I was going to say probably my favorite, but no, it's most definitely my favorite story in the book because it is just so powerful. Um, and the imagery is fabulous. Now I'm not going to do it justice, so I would recommend, we'll leave the link in the show notes for Arthur's TED talk.
[00:10:58] And I'm pretty sure if you look him up, he'll probably talk this through because listening to him explain this is much better than my paraphrased version. But here we go for the purposes of a podcast. The paraphrased version is. We spend most of the first half of our lives, up to say around age 50 or so, treating our lives like Jackson Pollock paintings.
[00:11:19] So for those of you who might not be familiar, Jackson Pollock is an artist and his art is very densely painted with lots and lots of layers of paint and colour. Kind of he, perfected the kind of throwing paint at a canvas approach, just throwing more stuff at it. And Arthur says that, he says, we keep throwing stuff at the canvas of our life, figuring that more will be better.
[00:11:41] Something will stick and it'll be great and we'll just throw more at it. More will be better. And he says, if we start to feel down or a bit blue or like we're not really achieving or we're not satisfied, we metaphorically throw some more paint on the canvas, adding more and more and more to our already busy lives.
[00:11:56] But, Arthur says at midlife, we need to completely rethink, or as he calls it, de build our life. So rather than a Jackson Pollock painting, we need to think of our life as a chunk of jade and be like the sculptors in many East Asian countries, where they trust that the beauty, the art, is already inside the stone and that our job is to chip away at the excess stone until just the beautiful artwork remains.
[00:12:25] Shelley: Wow, that is, yeah, as I say, that just gives me such an amazing visual. And I'd say to our listeners, if you aren't sure what we're talking about with Jackson Pollock and like Jade Sculpture, we'll leave some links for images that you can go and have a look in the show notes to get that, that mental image.
[00:12:43] But I think that's so powerful of the podcast. Taken away versus the add in. I like that it's more artistic than mathematical, although we're going to get to some mathematics later. I want to ask you about that. Um, but yeah, it, it does make me think we spoke earlier about what's rewarded and glorified.
[00:13:01] And I think our society often glorifies youth and achievements in ways that make us feel like we're losing out or we can't quite crack it as we get older. And. This is certainly something that we all then find ourselves fighting against, um, this idea, Oh, no, I'm past it, or I'm a has been, or over the hill, so given all that, it sounds like Arthur is encouraging us to see midlife and including the lead up to it, like in our forties, you know, and these are rough numbers, these aren't like exact numbers, but he's encouraging us to see that time of life as an opportunity to reframe our values and to A theme that always comes up in Two Booked Up, to refocus on what truly matters.
[00:13:49] We've spoken about this in 4, 000 Weeks. That was, in episode 25, where we discussed Oliver Berkman's 4, 000 Weeks, in Essentialism, Greg McKeown's book. And it even relates to even, I like, practical book organizing episodes in the last couple of episodes we've done that were inspired by Kendra Adachi's The Lazy Genius Kitchen. It's all about focusing on what matters, prioritizing what matters first and foremost, and then like striving for that. And I'm thinking it really means striving for less, cutting down, cutting out. So I think that's so important. And it's something that Honestly, we can all start doing right away. I was going to say it's easier to take away, but sometimes it really is harder to take away than to just keep adding.
[00:14:39] So yeah, but reflecting on what brings us genuine joy and meaning, I think can really help us to do that hard work of making more intentional choices of cutting out the things that don't align with what matters.
[00:14:57] Rowena: Yep, absolutely. And I think you're right. Actually taking things away is pretty hard in a culture, which, you know, the Western culture is very much that we acquire more and our status, especially if we've been striving, is ascribed by, you know, how many toys we've got. So, but we do love books that stick to our theme.
[00:15:17] So just like Oliver Berkman, as you mentioned, in 4, 000 Weeks, Arthur Brooks encourages us in our second curve, especially to focus on the limits of time and to use it well. Now this is something that Oliver Berkman also talks about. He says, we know there's a whole calculation in that book that we shared around how many weeks you have, left on earth.
[00:15:36] And then that's that kind of. How much time you actually have and how much, how are you going to use it? Arthur doesn't have that exact calculation, but he has a whole chapter titled Ponder Your Death, which is a pretty um, confronting title for a chapter
[00:15:52] Shelley: these are very, uh, positive kind of guys, hey?
[00:15:56] Rowena: yeah. He does, he does say in, I think, a separate conversation, maybe in a separate talk or one of his other books, that he's not naturally a positive kind of happy kind of guy.
[00:16:05] Um, that might be in the book that he wrote with Oprah. But, um, so what he talks about in the Ponder Your Death chapter is eulogy virtues. So the idea that what would we want people to say about us at our funeral, right, our eulogy. And that using those eulogy virtues, that we can then actively move away from accumulating.
[00:16:25] So this kind of striving, gathering more and more and more to the chipping and taking things away and prioritizing and really getting down to what's truly valuable to us. By thinking about one, what people, what we want people to say about us. And also then he poses some specific questions, which I'm going to just read out from the book, because I think He's got a particular way of putting things that I think really cuts through the noise in our heads.
[00:16:49] So here's the questions he says, written from, read from the book. "If I had one year left in my career and my life, how would I structure this coming month? What would be on my to do list? What would I choose not to worry about? Then he says, I'm willing to guess that taking an extra work trip at the expense of seeing my spouse and staying late to impress the boss are not items that will be on your schedule.
[00:17:13] More likely, take a weekend away and call my friend will show up instead." So we really love that quote because, and those questions, because it shows that it's around prioritizing what is valuable and what matters. But as Shelley, you mentioned, it is worth noting that while we're talking about all of this, Arthur does remind us quite a number of times in the book that this is not an easy thing to do.
[00:17:35] In fact, it is really hard because if we've spent our lives striving and achieving and accumulating. As he says, "even more powerful than our urge for more is our resistance to less." So he does make a point that it is pretty hard.
[00:17:51] Shelley: Yes, and then we've got this urge to, accumulate more and, and actually resist less. I, yeah, I mean, it makes me think of FOMO, of just this fear of missing out. And we want to just, extract everything from all the experiences that we potentially could have in life. And, you know, as a lot of these books talk about, that's, it's not really the way to get enjoyment and happiness out of life.
[00:18:15] But I'm glad he acknowledges that this is hard to fight this innate urge that we have in our, in our psyche to strive for more and not settle for less. So yeah, this all sounds very philosophical. Does he have any practical tips or suggestions to help us with the hard job of, you know, chipping away?
[00:18:38] Rowena: So now currently at the time of recording, he's a Harvard professor teaching a very popular class on happiness. But before that, he was head of a large think tank in Washington, DC, and before that, a professional musician. So this topic was very much of personal interest for him because he wrote it in his fifties as he was transforming his own life and moving from that think tank role to a teacher professor role.
[00:19:05] Which is very much crystallized intelligence. Which is why the second half of the book really focuses on the how we can make this transition or switch from accumulating and adding to chipping away and removing. So there's a lot of practical tips in there, and we won't talk about all of them because people need, it's, there's, it's a whole book, but
[00:19:25] Shelley: Yeah. Literally there's a book on that.
[00:19:28] Rowena: but you did mention maths, so it would be remiss of me not to share an equation because the first tip he has for getting started with the chipping away is to remember an equation.
[00:19:39] So the equation reads, and again, this is a direct quote, "satisfaction equals what you have divided by What you want.
[00:19:49] Shelley: Hmm.
[00:19:50] Rowena: second, he says we should look at the people, the activities or media we consume that tell us we need to have more to be happier, and then we should just do the opposite.
[00:20:00] So that was, that was his helpful tip. I was like, yeah, the first few times I read that, I was like, really Arthur? Like
[00:20:05] that's easier said than done, mate.
[00:20:09] Shelley: Yeah, he does sound like a real contrarian. I love it. I often feel like I'm doing the opposites. And, um, but that little equation is very interesting. And you know, thinking about the maths of satisfaction equals what you have divided by what you want. So then like, if you think about your numerators and denominators, if, if you want For less, if you want less, then that bottom like number, is going to be lower.
[00:20:37] And so then you're going to have greater satisfaction. And then conversely, if you're trying to divide it by like wanting so much. Um, yeah, you're going to feel dissatisfied. And I also, I suppose it's how you frame what you have, you know, because it could be money, status and all the trappings of life.
[00:20:55] But then I think when you start Reframing all of this, you kind of go, well, I've got these beautiful relationships, I've got so much and that what you have becomes bigger and bigger and And then with a low number of, of wanting and striving for, you can really get that kind of satisfaction. Now, from watching his TED Talk, I know that one of the key aspects of happiness, according to Arthur, is our relationships.
[00:21:22] So can you tell us more about that? Cause I think this is like now the, his opposite to all the striving and all the trappings of modern life. Um, the opposites, the contrary view doing the opposite is all about our human relationships.
[00:21:38] Rowena: Yep, absolutely. And it's based on the longest Harvard study into adulthood, which has basically found that over 80 something years, the people who have the The best happiness outcomes are those who have good quality family and friendships. So relationships with family and friendships. And so Arthur talks about this and he does also point out that friendships are even more important than family for happiness as we age.
[00:22:04] And he includes a bunch of research and data to support this. So those of you who are really keen on it, go check out all of that, the details in the book. But I love one of these quotes. And again, I'm going to share a quote because again, I think he just nails it. He says, "interaction with family members is often dictated by obligation, whereas interaction with friends is primarily motivated by pleasure."
[00:22:24] So, I love this and he specifically talks about the fact that there's a bunch of research that shows as we get older, our friendships become even more important than our family. So, perhaps at the age that many of us are. Like Shelley, you and I, our family are our children at the moment and our parents and we're, we're very much, absorbed in looking after our kids and, you know, caring, not necessarily caring for, but, you know, being connected with our parents.
[00:22:51] As we get older, maybe we don't have our parents around anymore and our kids become adults and so they don't need us so much. And so what becomes important to us are our friendships. So one of his very practical suggestions that I loved. Was his emphasis on deepening our connections with others. So he talks about investing in relationships that bring us joy and fulfillment rather than just chasing status or achievement.
[00:23:14] So, you know, hang out with someone because you actually like them.
[00:23:18] Which, you know, this is a novel idea. He also talks about the importance of being very selective in our friend choices. And again, the other thing that I think is a good takeaway was that actions are more important than words or intentions when it comes to maintaining and developing friendships.
[00:23:35] So pick up the phone and actually phone them or drop around and, you know, take them a meal if they're struggling.
[00:23:42] Shelley: huh. I like those actual actions, those acts of, of kindness and connection. Um, yeah, I, I'm finding that in our increasingly connected world, we've got a lot more options as it were, uh, we can potentially be friends with anyone in the world, as we are. Um, but then it also does mean that we need to be selective about the people we invite into our lives.
[00:24:08] The people that we're allowed to speak into our lives and who in turn we give our advice and counsel to. Um, yeah. And we've spoken about this second half of life. I feel like the two of us, we're in our, what should we say? Mid to early thirties. Oh yeah. Let's say thirties. We're in our
[00:24:26] Rowena: no, no, I would say I'm probably, I think I'm probably, it's very hard for me to say I'm in my mid forties now. Let's just say we're in
[00:24:34] Shelley: our
[00:24:34] forties.
[00:24:35] that, I like it, I like it, that's
[00:24:37] correct. But Yes.
[00:24:40] I think we're planted firmly between the two halves of life, I think that we can say, that Arthur Brooks is talking about. What he does have to say about the change in our, in the latter half of our lives is in terms of the connections that we form with others, we become these modern elders. Talk about that, Ro,
[00:24:59] Rowena: yes, thank you. I love that part. So this is really kind of getting towards the back part of the book. And the idea is that we're being called to transform into modern elders. So we're finding meaning in our suffering and we're sharing that meaning. That's his words. So there are four steps to become a modern elder.
[00:25:18] One is to evolve from a fixed to a growth mindset, second is to have an openness to new things and to really foster that. The third one is to collaborate with teams.
[00:25:30] And the final one is to counsel others. So he reminds us that embracing a new mindset, so that growth mindset and becoming a more modern elder won't actually make us super happy every day. We're not going to be doing the happy dance every day. It won't give us fulfillment every day. Some days, just like, you know, the rest of our life, it's going to feel a bit unsatisfying, but with the right goals, , our success through Being the modern elder and sharing our knowledge with coaching and mentoring and our wisdom and serving others, if we do those things, we can actually make the rest of our career, that will be its reward in itself. The whole rest of our career is itself a reward. And he also recommends that in this next stage of our careers, we should seek work that is a balance of both enjoyable and meaningful.
[00:26:18] And he has a lovely diagram that he says that the. The peak of that, the nexus of enjoyable and meaningful. Well, the overlap, if you want to do a Venn diagram, is interesting. So interesting work will mean that we've got both enjoyable and meaningful.
[00:26:32] Shelley: And I, I love that idea of, of moving from fixed mindset to growth mindset. You know, I think that is something you naturally, I would argue you naturally do have to do in your younger years.
[00:26:44] where you go, okay, I don't know everything, although maybe some people will argue that young people think they know everything. Um, but, but to go, there is still so much to learn. And I think there is maybe this message that comes through that as you age, you should, you should know everything. But by this point, you've studied all there is to study and you should just know everything.
[00:27:05] But it's, it's. It's having the growth mindset. Um, my dad often talks about this and he, he trains people. This is his job is being this mentor and this, educator and teacher. And he'll always say, I'm here to learn as much from you as you are learning from me. And having this growth mindset, I think is, is so important in the second half of life and to, to get that satisfaction, but as you say, there's going to be days where you're like, Oh my goodness, this doesn't feel very satisfying. But I think by having this reframe and having the right goals, the work itself will be the reward and be meaningful and interesting. So I love that.
[00:27:44] And it's not really about retiring from work. It's, it's about the fact that living longer, we are living longer. And so we want to enjoy like the next 20 or 30 years after we kind of sort of retire from work, when we can still meaningfully contribute and we'll get a greater sense of meaning and purpose from that.
[00:28:07] So yeah, I love that Arthur suggests all these different ways that we can do that. So we can feel great, that we can feel happier. And maybe to quote the words that you mentioned earlier, those eulogy virtues are positive.
[00:28:23] Rowena: Mm hmm.
[00:28:24] Shelley: Rowena, I want to come back to the, bring it back to the beginning. You said you chose this book because of its title, From Strength to Strength.
[00:28:32] What about those strengths that he mentions in the title?
[00:28:36] Rowena: Okay, so basically he says the secret to going from strength to strength is to recognize that your weakness, and in this instance it's the loss, the decline, those, you know, the getting older stuff can actually be a gift to both you and to others.
[00:28:51] And he suggests that as you change your mindset and your focus, and instead of acquiring and chasing, you start giving back, you move to giving back to other people. So he says that's that's sort of from strength to strength, you're moving from being really striving, achieving, you know, and accomplished, to then saying, Okay, now I'm just going to reframe that.
[00:29:11] And now I'm going to give back. And that's a different strength. And so that's moving from one strength to another. But he also says, look, you're going to have failures. That's normal. That's guaranteed. But the true master uses the inevitable failures, including the declines that follow a life of success as a source of deep human connection.
[00:29:29] So it's actually connecting because this is a shared experience. We're all going to go through this and using our own experience to connect with others. Which truly is beautiful, right? That's how we connect. That's why you, that's why we have mums groups, right? Because we connect with other mums and it makes us feel like we're less alone and we can share wisdom. You know, it's that same idea, just, you know, a few years on. So he has got one more quote because I do love to share the quotes and here's what he says. "Here is what I learned from that experience. It was through my weakness, not my strength, that I was able to connect with people I never would have met otherwise.
[00:30:06] just think that's beautiful. Yes.
[00:30:12] Shelley: being vulnerable opens us up to more meaningful connection that growth mindset, we don't have to know it all it's in weakness and in our common experiences and the struggles that we're both going through. I think that's where true and lasting connections are made. So it sounds like a beautiful book. So yes, I think that humility and vulnerability opens us up to more meaningful connection.
[00:30:36] Rowena: Yes, exactly. And you're experiencing it too now. That's the mic drop moment.
[00:30:41] As I read the book, speaking of mic drop moments, I would get so excited by a lot of the ideas and I was reading parts of it out loud to my poor husband, um, in bed. So I was reading it before I'd go to sleep and I'd be like, Oh, you have to just listen to this, blah, blah, blah.
[00:30:55] And then I'd read like a paragraph and he'd go, uh huh. Yeah, that sounds really good. And then he'd go back to do whatever he was doing. He was mostly patient with my enthusiasm, but I think you're discovering Shelley and I hope our listeners discovered there are so many great insights in the book. And it is written in such an
[00:31:11] easy to read way. And it is super entertaining, which really helps because books that are heavy in data and research, which this one is, when they're done in an entertaining way, it's, it's enjoyable to read. It means it's actually, you start looking forward to thinking, Oh, I can't wait to read a bit more of that book.
[00:31:28] Yes.
[00:31:31] Shelley: the TED Talk first, um, and, and kind of get a picture of him talking. He's got a, yeah, he's got quite a personality in the way he delivers his message. There really are so many aha moments just from this conversation, Ro. So thank you for the insights and the reflections that you've shared.
[00:31:48] from book, From Strength to Strength by Arthur C. Brooks. You can go and look that up. It'll be in our show notes as well. We'll put a link to the book. It really does seem to contain a wealth of valuable content. And yeah, we've only just touched on a few of the aha moments. So if you haven't read it yet and are interested based on what we've shared, go and grab yourself a copy.
[00:32:11] And we will also put a link to that TED talk in the show notes. But now, Rowena, I think it is time for our listeners to choose their own adventure based on what we've discussed. So can you give us two suggestions that listeners could go and try out at home?
[00:32:29] Rowena: Yes. So suggestion number one, consider redefining what success looks like for you. Ask yourself, What truly makes you happy on a deeper level? And suggestion number two, reach out to your chosen family. That is the friends who are important to you and consider what action you can take to demonstrate how important that friend is to you.
[00:32:51] Like I suggested, maybe you could drop around a meal to a friend that you know is having a tough time or actually phone them, not just send them a text to have a chat. or something else completely, you know, your friendships, but yeah, reach out to those chosen family. All right, that is where we're going to wrap things up, but not before Shelley, you tell us what you've been reading at the moment.
[00:33:12] Shelley: Oh, I have been reading The Blue Machine, How the Ocean Works by Helen Czerski. This is a fantastic book. I have gone down the rabbit hole of oceanography because I am busy doing a course on learning in depth, and I got the topic of exploration. And this got me diving deep into how the ocean works.
[00:33:37] So yeah, it's just opened my mind. The ocean is not just that blue hue that you fly over when you Travelling by plane from Jo'burg to Sydney one day when I come and meet you in person, Ro. It's this whole machine, the ocean is a machine that powers our earth. From our weather patterns to the more bizarre stories of why bird guano from Peru was used as fertilizer in turnip fields in the UK.
[00:34:09] So it is a beautifully written nonfiction book. woven with stories and jaw dropping insights. And really, as an inland girl, I live inland here in Joburg, it made me fall in love with the ocean, even me.
[00:34:25] And talking of books, our next book choice, just so that you know what's coming ahead on Two Booked Up, is from one of our Two Booked Up authors, Gretchen Rubin.
[00:34:36] Shelley: We'll be discussing her book, Better Than Before. But until two weeks time, let's continue the conversation. We've got lots to talk about from strength to strength, so you can connect with me on LinkedIn. I'm Shelley Tonkin Smith. You can look me up there. And you can learn more about my copywriting services and resources for online service providers and educators at shelleysmithcreative.Com. That's also where you can find all of my resources on copywriting, using AI tools effectively, and finding the right tech tools for your website and online home. And Rowena, where can listeners find you? I'm
[00:35:16] Rowena: Okay, you can find me at Rowena Mabbott on Instagram. I'm also on LinkedIn. Also, just Rowena Mabbott. That's my name. You can visit RowenaMabbott. com for information about my coaching services, the novels I've published and all my resources to support you in harnessing your strengths to live with more clarity and confidence.
[00:35:34] You can also grab my brand new free guide, Three Steps to Fall in Love with Your Job. So you can grab that on my website at rowenamabbott.com/love. And of course, remember to visit TwoBookedUp.com for show notes with links to all the books we've mentioned and to download the 24 for 2024 reading challenge PDF I'm
[00:35:55] Shelley: shelley Tonkin Smith,
[00:35:56] Rowena: and I'm Rowena Mabbott we'll see you in two weeks time for another episode of two Booked Up.
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